1.7s
designers have been taught, we sort of treat it as gospel. That's basically dead. You as a designer actually like do not have the time to make these beautiful mocks anymore. A big part of the design role now is helping engineers and teams execute, not just telling them here's the design.
3.3s
treat it as gospel. That's basically
5.1s
dead. You as a designer actually like do
7.1s
not have the time to make these
8.7s
beautiful mocks anymore.
10.0s
A big part of the design role now is
11.6s
helping engineers and teams execute, not
14.2s
just telling them here's the design.
15.7s
Few years ago, 60 to 70 of it was mocking and prototyping. But now I feel the mocking up part of it is 30 to 40. You're better off not blocking that, letting them cook. It's not just designers who are feeling like oh yeah we have to keep up with engineers. I
19.0s
mocking and prototyping. But now I feel
21.1s
the mocking up part of it is 30 to 40.
23.7s
You're better off not blocking that,
25.6s
letting them cook. It's not just
27.3s
designers who are feeling like oh yeah
28.7s
we have to keep up with engineers. I
30.1s
think even engineers are like how do we keep up with ourselves? How do keep up with all our agents? There are seven agents who are constantly running. The result of engineering changing a bunch is that design is sort of forced to change. We used to go off and make this 2 year 5 year 10ear vision even.
31.4s
keep up with ourselves?
32.4s
How do keep up with all our agents?
33.6s
There are seven agents who are
34.6s
constantly running.
35.2s
The result of engineering changing a
36.6s
bunch is that design is sort of forced
38.2s
to change. We used to go off and make
39.9s
this 2 year 5 year 10ear vision even.
43.0s
Now it becomes a vision that's 3 to 6 months out and isn't necessarily creating this music beautiful deck. Sometimes just creating a prototype that points people in the right direction. Boris on the podcast recently was saying Claude Code is now helping him come up with ideas. We'll get better at taste and judgement and design. We might be
45.3s
months out and isn't necessarily
47.6s
creating this music beautiful deck.
49.3s
Sometimes just creating a prototype that
50.8s
points people in the right direction.
52.1s
Boris on the podcast recently was saying
53.7s
Claude Code is now helping him come up
55.0s
with ideas. We'll get better at taste
56.9s
and judgement and design. We might be
59.2s
holding on to that a little bit too holding on to that a little bit too much. Where will human brains continue to be Where will human brains continue to be valuable? At the end of the day, someone has to decide what is actually going to get built and what music actually matters. Someone still needs to be accountable
60.9s
holding on to that a little bit too much.
61.2s
Where will human brains continue to be
63.3s
Where will human brains continue to be valuable?
63.8s
At the end of the day, someone has to
65.1s
decide what is actually going to get
66.6s
built and what music actually matters.
68.9s
Someone still needs to be accountable
70.1s
for the decision. What do you now look for when you're hiring designers? There's probably three archetypes of folks that are really interesting to me right now. head of design for Claude, is now leading design for Claude Co-work. Prior to that, she was director of design at Figma, where she led the design teams
70.9s
What do you now look for when you're
72.8s
hiring designers?
73.8s
There's probably three archetypes of
75.5s
folks that are really interesting to me
77.1s
right now.
82.8s
head of design for Claude, is now
84.6s
leading design for Claude Co-work. Prior
86.8s
to that, she was director of design at
88.4s
Figma, where she led the design teams
90.3s
behind Fig Jam and Slides. She was also designer at Dropbox and Square and Shopify. And what I love about this conversation is that Jenny is living in the future of where design as a profession is heading. And she is here to give us a glimpse into what that looks like and music how much things
92.6s
designer at Dropbox and Square and
94.5s
Shopify. And what I love about this
96.6s
conversation is that Jenny is living in
98.7s
the future of where design as a
100.9s
profession is heading. And she is here
102.8s
to give us a glimpse into what that
104.7s
looks like and music how much things
106.2s
are going to be changing for designers. It is pretty wild and extremely interesting. A huge thank you to no 111 and Emily Lin Hasham for suggesting topics and questions for this conversation. Don't forget to check out conversation. Don't forget to check out lennisproass.com for an incredible set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter
108.2s
It is pretty wild and extremely
110.6s
interesting. A huge thank you to no 111
112.7s
and Emily Lin Hasham for suggesting
114.8s
topics and questions for this
115.9s
conversation. Don't forget to check out
117.6s
conversation. Don't forget to check out lennisproass.com
119.3s
for an incredible set of deals available
121.3s
exclusively to Lenny's newsletter
123.0s
subscribers. Let's get into it after a short word from our wonderful sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Mercury, radically different banking loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs, including me. I switched to Mercury from Chase over a year ago, and it is music such a profoundly better experience. It's like an actual product person built
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smarter outcomes faster. Learn more at smarter outcomes faster. Learn more at orcus.iolenny. That's o rke kes.iolenny. and welcome to the podcast. Yeah, excited to be here. I've been looking forward to this conversation because I spent a lot of time on this podcast talking about the future of software engineering, how much
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smarter outcomes faster. Learn more at orcus.iolenny.
251.0s
That's o rke kes.iolenny.
259.9s
and welcome to the podcast.
261.3s
Yeah, excited to be here.
262.6s
I've been looking forward to this
263.7s
conversation because I spent a lot of
265.6s
time on this podcast talking about the
267.8s
future of software engineering, how much
269.8s
that role is changing, uh the role of product management, how much that role is changing. I haven't spent a lot of time on how design is changing. Clearly it is also changing in a really big way and you have such a front row seat to where things are heading. Uh I also know
272.4s
product management, how much that role
274.2s
is changing. I haven't spent a lot of
276.2s
time on how design is changing. Clearly
279.6s
it is also changing in a really big way
282.3s
and you have such a front row seat to
285.4s
where things are heading. Uh I also know
287.4s
you have a lot of very strong opinions about where things are heading. So uh there's a lot of stuff I want to talk about. I want to just start with this just this broad question. How is the design process changing with the rise of design process changing with the rise of AI?
288.7s
about where things are heading. So uh
290.6s
there's a lot of stuff I want to talk
292.2s
about. I want to just start with this
293.5s
just this broad question. How is the
296.2s
design process changing with the rise of
299.0s
design process changing with the rise of AI?
299.8s
It's changing a lot. Um I I think it's still also got a lot a long way to go in terms of the way it's changing. Like I think we've actually seen, you know, engineering change a lot more in the in the past little while than design actually has. But I think the result of
303.2s
still also got a lot a long way to go in
306.0s
terms of the way it's changing. Like I
307.4s
think we've actually seen, you know,
309.8s
engineering change a lot more in the in
313.0s
the past little while than design
314.6s
actually has. But I think the result of
316.3s
engineering changing a bunch is that design is sort of forced to change. Um, and so I think some context around this is I I did a talk at a conference in Berlin a few months ago in September and I called it like don't trust the design process where I basically just said like
319.0s
design is sort of forced to change. Um,
320.9s
and so I think some context around this
322.6s
is I I did a talk at a conference in
325.9s
Berlin a few months ago in September and
328.3s
I called it like don't trust the design
329.9s
process where I basically just said like
332.6s
hey you know this design process that designers have been taught where you go and you go off and you do a bunch of research and discovery and then you like diverge you converge diverge converge and it's like this process that we sort of treated as gospel and and tried so hard to preserve and we were like trust
335.0s
designers have been taught where you go
337.0s
and you go off and you do a bunch of
338.6s
research and discovery and then you like
340.6s
diverge you converge diverge converge
343.1s
and it's like this process that we sort
345.4s
of treated as gospel and and tried so
347.5s
hard to preserve and we were like trust
349.1s
the process. that is that's basically dead. Uh I think it was sort of dying before the age of AI, but given now that you know engineers can go off and spin off their like seven clouds, laughter I think as as designers, we really have to let go of that process. And I think that's the
350.2s
that is that's basically dead. Uh I
352.4s
think it was sort of dying before the
353.8s
age of AI, but given now that you know
358.1s
engineers can go off and spin off their
360.2s
like seven clouds, laughter I think as
362.4s
as designers, we really have to let go
366.2s
of that process. And I think that's the
367.5s
big thing that's changing. But I think even in the past three to four months since I did that talk, that talk actually starts to feel pretty it kind of feels outdated to me, which is a little embarrassing. But especially with the big shift of like Opus 46 and a bunch of folks just like really
369.8s
even in the past three to four months
371.6s
since I did that talk, that talk
373.0s
actually starts to feel pretty it kind
375.6s
of feels outdated to me, which is a
377.0s
little embarrassing. But especially with
378.8s
the big shift of like Opus 46 and a
381.4s
bunch of folks just like really
382.8s
discovering and using cloud code over the holiday break, um I think we're seeing this like force to change our pro process happen even more. the the way I sort of see it now is like there are basically two types of design work and design work is kind of like becoming really stratified in this new world in
384.7s
the holiday break, um I think we're
387.2s
seeing this like force to change our pro
390.2s
process happen even more. the the way I
393.2s
sort of see it now is like there are
395.3s
basically two types of design work and
397.9s
design work is kind of like becoming
399.6s
really stratified in this new world in
401.4s
this new world. Um so there's like the first one which is really just like supporting the implementation and supporting the implementation and execution. So this is the one where you know engineers are using their seven clouds to to create all these features and anybody can like put an idea out there
403.3s
first one which is really just like
405.4s
supporting the implementation and
406.9s
supporting the implementation and execution.
408.5s
So this is the one where you know
410.3s
engineers are using their seven clouds
413.0s
to to create all these features and
414.8s
anybody can like put an idea out there
417.1s
and you can just like talk about an idea and somebody usually actually an engineer because they're still better at implementing this stuff than we are. They will just make a scrappy version of it and you can try it out and you as a designer actually like do not have the time to make these beautiful mocks
419.1s
and somebody usually actually an
420.6s
engineer because they're still better at
421.8s
implementing this stuff than we are.
423.6s
They will just make a scrappy version of
425.6s
it and you can try it out and you as a
428.6s
designer actually like do not have the
430.4s
time to make these beautiful mocks
432.1s
anymore or to like kind of lead in this way. And then I think there's like the second kind of work that feels also really important which is like creating the sort of vision or direction for things. Um this one feels like the hardest to make time for and it's still it's one that like we we still did
435.1s
way. And then I think there's like the
437.3s
second kind of work that feels also
439.9s
really important which is like creating
441.4s
the sort of vision or direction for
443.1s
things. Um this one feels like the
445.0s
hardest to make time for and it's still
447.8s
it's one that like we we still did
449.8s
before but I think the shape of it is very much changing because I think we used to go off and say you know we're going to do this design vision. We're going to go off and make this like 2year, 5 year whatever 10 year vision even and we're going to like point us
451.8s
very much changing because I think we
453.0s
used to go off and say you know we're
455.0s
going to do this design vision. We're
456.2s
going to go off and make this like
457.5s
2year, 5 year whatever 10 year vision
460.2s
even and we're going to like point us
462.2s
towards something. But the way that the technology is changing now, like we actually don't know, we don't know what's going to happen in 2 years. There's too much changing and it usually becomes a vision that's like 3 to 6 months out and isn't necessarily something that is like creating this like beautiful deck that's like
465.0s
technology is changing now, like we
466.9s
actually don't know, we don't know
468.9s
what's going to happen in 2 years.
470.1s
There's too much changing and it usually
472.7s
becomes a vision that's like 3 to 6
474.9s
months out and isn't necessarily
477.5s
something that is like creating this
480.0s
like beautiful deck that's like
481.1s
beautifully story told. It's sometimes just like creating a prototype that points people in the right direction. And I think this kind of work is like still really important in this world because in a world where people can spin off their seven seven claws, make whatever features they want in any direct in any kind of like direction or
482.6s
just like creating a prototype that
484.6s
points people in the right direction.
486.3s
And I think this kind of work is like
488.0s
still really important in this world
489.4s
because in a world where people can spin
492.2s
off their seven seven claws, make
493.6s
whatever features they want in any
495.0s
direct in any kind of like direction or
497.9s
or implementation, you need to point them towards something. And in order to make sure that we're all making something that makes sense together and is also done in a way where it's like efficient, right? like if we're all working towards something that has one greater cause, it's like much more efficient to do that than than just
500.4s
them towards something. And in order to
502.6s
make sure that we're all making
503.7s
something that makes sense together and
505.8s
is also done in a way where it's like
508.3s
efficient, right? like if we're all
509.4s
working towards something that has one
511.5s
greater cause, it's like much more
513.3s
efficient to do that than than just
515.0s
random things. And so that's like the big shift that I'm seeing and I think I have opinions about it now, but ask me in like 3 months and it might actually change even more. So what you're saying here is it's not like uh you or the design field is like we need to change.
517.0s
big shift that I'm seeing and I think I
519.0s
have opinions about it now, but ask me
521.0s
in like 3 months and it might actually
522.7s
change even more. So what you're saying
524.9s
here is it's not like uh you or the
527.9s
design field is like we need to change.
530.2s
It's engineering and the fact that you can build so quickly just forces uh the role of a designer to change because as you said engineers can just ship ship ship ship ship and what you're finding here is like you're better off not blocking that letting them cook as they say and uh and then there's kind of this
532.2s
can build so quickly just forces uh the
535.8s
role of a designer to change because as
538.0s
you said engineers can just ship ship
539.9s
ship ship ship and what you're finding
541.9s
here is like you're better off not
543.8s
blocking that letting them cook as they
546.3s
say and uh and then there's kind of this
548.8s
mode of helping them along as they ship bring it together make sure it all kind of connects guide them a little bit. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I don't think there is like one unifying voice that's like designers, we need to change right now, but there yeah, there is sort of like the the follow- on effects of
551.5s
bring it together make sure it all kind
552.9s
of connects guide them a little bit.
555.8s
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I don't think
557.3s
there is like one unifying voice that's
559.0s
like designers, we need to change right
560.8s
now, but there yeah, there is sort of
562.9s
like the the follow- on effects of
565.5s
engineering tooling really changing. I think we'll probably see design tooling change in this next year or so as well. But a lot of it right now is trailing bats. And I think it's also really empowering for us too because as designers we also now have access to a lot of these coding tools and we can be
567.4s
think we'll probably see design tooling
568.9s
change in this next year or so as well.
571.8s
But a lot of it right now is trailing
574.3s
bats. And I think it's also really
575.9s
empowering for us too because as
577.9s
designers we also now have access to a
580.1s
lot of these coding tools and we can be
582.2s
a part of the process in a way where we're implementing stuff like it's like I'm I'm doing a lot of last mile stuff where I'm implementing all the polish and like a and and sort of like working with engineers really closely to get the feature across the line um and also prototype stuff in actual code as
584.2s
we're implementing stuff like it's like
586.1s
I'm I'm doing a lot of last mile stuff
588.5s
where I'm implementing all the polish
589.9s
and like a and and sort of like working
592.5s
with engineers really closely to get the
595.0s
feature across the line um and also
596.9s
prototype stuff in actual code as
599.0s
opposed to like relying on engineers to do that again. How true do you think this this is at all companies at say AI companies non AI companies you know someone may be hearing this okay anthropic claude like okay it's like they're at the bleeding edge for one two it's like developer a little bit but I
601.5s
do that again. How true do you think
603.2s
this this is at all companies at say AI
607.4s
companies non AI companies you know
608.9s
someone may be hearing this okay
610.2s
anthropic claude like okay it's like
612.1s
they're at the bleeding edge for one two
613.8s
it's like developer a little bit but I
616.2s
think people might be feeling like okay I this is not going to happen at Salesforce this is not going to happen at I don't know service now wherever so I guess does do you feel like this is where all teams are heading is it mostly AI bleeding edge companies how widespread do you think the design
617.7s
I this is not going to happen at
618.9s
Salesforce this is not going to happen
620.2s
at I don't know service now wherever so
623.0s
I guess does do you feel like this is
624.6s
where all teams are heading is it mostly
627.0s
AI bleeding edge companies how
629.3s
widespread do you think the design
630.6s
process shift is going to So the talk that I did last year has weirdly been like the most resonant talk that I've done and I so I think it's something that people are starting to feel across the industry where they're like oh yeah we can't do the old design process anymore. You know we are using tools
632.9s
that I did last year has weirdly been
636.0s
like the most resonant talk that I've
638.2s
done and I so I think it's something
641.6s
that people are starting to feel across
643.4s
the industry where they're like oh yeah
645.2s
we can't do the old design process
646.7s
anymore. You know we are using tools
649.8s
like claude code and and bzero and whatnot to to start to spin up prototypes and PMs are starting to spin up prototypes and stuff like that as well. So I think there's something there emerging. But the other interesting observation with that talk too was there was actually also a decent amount of like backlash like people were people
652.0s
whatnot to to start to spin up
653.8s
prototypes and PMs are starting to spin
655.8s
up prototypes and stuff like that as
657.2s
well. So I think there's something there
659.0s
emerging. But the other interesting
661.0s
observation with that talk too was there
662.6s
was actually also a decent amount of
664.7s
like backlash like people were people
667.9s
clearly have invested their entire careers in learning teaching using this like really stable design process and they were I think there was a lot of like discrediting like oh yeah like we can't do without discovery we can't do without these pieces of process. So I think there is still a piece of the
669.6s
careers in learning teaching using this
672.9s
like really stable design process and
675.1s
they were I think there was a lot of
676.2s
like discrediting like oh yeah like we
677.8s
can't do without discovery we can't do
679.3s
without these pieces of process. So I
681.1s
think there is still a piece of the
682.8s
industry that is not quite there yet in terms of this way of working if that makes sense. makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And a big part of this is like you could argue like the question is what leads to the best most successful products and companies and you could argue it's spending time doing discovery user
686.3s
terms of this way of working if that
687.6s
makes sense.
688.4s
makes sense. Yeah.
689.1s
Yeah. Yeah.
689.4s
And a big part of this is like you could
690.9s
argue like the question is what leads to
693.4s
the best most successful products and
695.3s
companies and you could argue it's
697.4s
spending time doing discovery user
699.0s
research mocks iterating beta testing or it could be just engineer ship is stuff that's okay not amazing good enough we learn iterate build iterate. Is your sense that that second path is not only is that just like what everyone's doing, but that actually leads to the better product. At this point,
702.2s
it could be just engineer ship is stuff
704.5s
that's okay not amazing good enough we
707.0s
learn iterate build iterate. Is your
710.0s
sense that that second path is not only
712.5s
is that just like what everyone's doing,
713.8s
but that actually leads to the better
715.3s
product. At this point,
716.5s
I think you sort of have to choose and use your discretion as to like when to actually ship something. But I think the the ability to execute, try something out and try it with like real data um and and a real user like kind of mindset in the product. I think that does lead
718.1s
use your discretion as to like when to
719.7s
actually ship something. But I think the
722.3s
the ability to execute, try something
725.5s
out and try it with like real data um
728.4s
and and a real user like kind of mindset
732.2s
in the product. I think that does lead
733.6s
to a better product, especially as we're all working with these like new developing AI models that are non-deterministic. You can't you just can't you can't mock up all the states, you know, and you can't theorize and you can't even make uh like a clickable prototype with it. sort of have to use the actual models underneath and you
735.4s
all working with these like new
737.4s
developing AI models that are
738.8s
non-deterministic. You can't you just
741.0s
can't you can't mock up all the states,
742.4s
you know, and you can't theorize and you
744.9s
can't even make uh like a clickable
746.9s
prototype with it. sort of have to use
749.1s
the actual models underneath and you
750.6s
have to sort of see people try it out with their use cases because with these models like you discover you can design them for different use cases but you don't you have to discover use cases as you see people using them. So yes the other thing I always hear and building on what you just said is just
752.6s
with their use cases because with these
755.5s
models like you discover you can design
757.4s
them for different use cases but you
759.8s
don't you have to discover use cases as
761.4s
you see people using them. So yes
763.4s
the other thing I always hear and
764.8s
building on what you just said is just
766.6s
you don't know what people will do with AI. You don't know how good it'll be at certain things the nondeterministic piece of it. So you can create these amazing mocks of what it might be and then people use it in a completely different way which is where co-work came from and probably even cla code at
767.8s
AI. You don't know how good it'll be at
770.2s
certain things the nondeterministic
771.8s
piece of it. So you can create these
773.8s
amazing mocks of what it might be and
775.6s
then people use it in a completely
777.0s
different way which is where co-work
779.0s
came from and probably even cla code at
781.0s
the beginning and so so what's it what's it just like to be a designer at Anthropic? Just like give us a day in the life of working at Anthropic in at the center of the storm. A good amount of time at Anthropic is actually just like catching up on what people what's happening at the company.
784.4s
it just like to be a designer at
785.7s
Anthropic? Just like give us a day in
787.2s
the life of working at Anthropic in at
789.7s
the center of the storm.
791.1s
A good amount of time at Anthropic is
795.8s
actually just like catching up on what
797.8s
people what's happening at the company.
799.7s
I think this is the company where I I've worked at a few other companies around this size where I think there's just a lot of like information and a lot of things going on, but I feel really compelled to keep up with it. You know, like there's there's stuff that is like model developments on the research side
802.9s
worked at a few other companies around
804.2s
this size where I think there's just a
806.9s
lot of like information and a lot of
808.5s
things going on, but I feel really
810.8s
compelled to keep up with it. You know,
812.6s
like there's there's stuff that is like
814.3s
model developments on the research side
816.4s
and then at any given time there are just so many different teams prototyping and trying different ideas out and there's a bunch of different like code names and stuff like that. And a lot of time I'm just like trying to navigate and figure out what those what those projects are because I think I'm just
819.4s
just so many different teams prototyping
821.8s
and trying different ideas out and
823.6s
there's a bunch of different like code
825.3s
names and stuff like that. And a lot of
826.7s
time I'm just like trying to navigate
827.8s
and figure out what those what those
829.4s
projects are because I think I'm just
831.0s
trying to spot and see like hey what's coming up ahead for me um because there's stuff from both the research team but also some of our like labs teams that are that are closer to research and trying out and prototyping stuff. And then there's just like stuff I want to try out, you know, like we
833.0s
coming up ahead for me um because
835.0s
there's stuff from both the research
837.3s
team but also some of our like labs
839.4s
teams that are that are closer to
841.0s
research and trying out and prototyping
843.0s
stuff. And then there's just like stuff
844.5s
I want to try out, you know, like we
846.2s
have a bunch of like we have a bunch of prototypes and products internally that we can use and I am just curious and I want to try those things out. And then I think there's also a lot of folks who internally have a lot of insights and opinions on where the industry is going
848.1s
prototypes and products internally that
850.0s
we can use and I am just curious and I
853.8s
want to try those things out. And then I
856.0s
think there's also a lot of folks who
857.8s
internally have a lot of insights and
860.2s
opinions on where the industry is going
863.4s
and some of those are just like really interesting to read because a lot of these are like philosophical debates or directions of the company and stuff like that and yeah I feel like I just want to keep up with these things whereas I think at a normal company I'm like it's fine. This is stuff that's happening
865.0s
interesting to read because a lot of
867.3s
these are like philosophical debates or
869.5s
directions of the company and stuff like
871.0s
that and yeah I feel like I just want to
873.2s
keep up with these things whereas I
874.5s
think at a normal company I'm like it's
876.5s
fine. This is stuff that's happening
877.6s
outside of my reach. I don't I don't really care as much where here I think it's both the volume and the kinds of things that are happening that I'm like really interested in keeping up with. Um and then aside from that sort of keep up that's not a huge part of my job, but I
879.4s
really care as much where here I think
881.5s
it's both the volume and the kinds of
884.1s
things that are happening that I'm like
886.0s
really interested in keeping up with. Um
888.1s
and then aside from that sort of keep up
890.2s
that's not a huge part of my job, but I
891.7s
do think it's a really interesting part of it. Well, it connects to the point you made earlier. A big part of the design role now is helping engineers and teams execute. Not just telling them here's the mock, here's the design. It's helping them stay on track, helping them connect ideas, create a cohesive
892.9s
of it.
893.4s
Well, it connects to the point you made
894.8s
earlier. A big part of the design role
896.3s
now is helping engineers and teams
899.4s
execute. Not just telling them here's
901.2s
the mock, here's the design. It's
902.6s
helping them stay on track, helping them
904.2s
connect ideas, create a cohesive
906.2s
experience as it's happening. So that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think part of it is just curiosity, you know, like it feels like I have this front row seat to so much happening in the industry. And so a lot of it is like, yeah, our Slack is a gold mine, you know, like I'm just
908.4s
makes sense.
909.0s
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think part of it
910.5s
is just curiosity, you know, like it
912.1s
feels like I have this front row seat to
914.0s
so much happening in the industry. And
915.8s
so a lot of it is like, yeah, our Slack
917.7s
is a gold mine, you know, like I'm just
919.4s
excited to to read through the things that people are working on and they're that people are working on and they're saying. I never thought about how like there's already so much AI news to keep track of as a regular person and then actually seeing what's actually happening inside a lab is a whole new set of feeds to
921.3s
that people are working on and they're
922.5s
that people are working on and they're saying.
923.0s
I never thought about how like there's
924.6s
already so much AI news to keep track of
926.3s
as a regular person and then actually
928.8s
seeing what's actually happening inside
930.0s
a lab is a whole new set of feeds to
932.7s
a lab is a whole new set of feeds to watch. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I don't I think that is the the best AI news is probably internally if you're ever at one of these companies in the slack. Damn. Yeah. It just problem keeps getting harder of just keeping keeping track what's going
933.8s
Yeah. Yeah. It's like I don't I think
935.2s
that is the the best AI news is probably
938.0s
internally if you're ever at one of
939.7s
these companies in the slack.
941.1s
Damn. Yeah.
942.9s
It just problem keeps getting harder of
944.5s
just keeping keeping track what's going
945.9s
on. Okay. So, okay. So, that's part of the job. What else? There is still some of like the traditional like let me think about what's happening in the in the future and let me like make some designs for that. That's something that for example this week I've allotted some time to
947.7s
the job. What else?
948.7s
There is still some of like the
950.0s
traditional like let me think about
951.5s
what's happening in the in the future
953.5s
and let me like make some designs for
955.1s
that. That's something that for example
957.0s
this week I've allotted some time to
958.3s
where I'm like okay cool. like we have been in a lot of like execution mode for co-work and now I want to set aside some time to think about hey what do the next like 3 months look like and and where does that act where could that actually go given where the market's at where the
960.2s
been in a lot of like execution mode for
963.0s
co-work and now I want to set aside some
965.1s
time to think about hey what do the next
966.9s
like 3 months look like and and where
969.5s
does that act where could that actually
970.8s
go given where the market's at where the
974.2s
models are at and what could that be because I think it's still really helps to visualize that and show that to the team and point everyone in the same direction um and then I also spend a bunch of my day just jamming on stuff with engineers like a lot of it is just
976.2s
because I think it's still really helps
977.4s
to visualize that and show that to the
979.2s
team and point everyone in the same
980.6s
direction um and then I also spend a
982.9s
bunch of my day just jamming on stuff
986.1s
with engineers like a lot of it is just
987.7s
a conversation or like whiteboarding or going through something that they built and giving them feedback on it and being a designer in that kind of way where we're like consulting. Um, and then I spend a part of my day in code, you know, like polishing, implementing stuff. Sometimes what happens is an engineer and I have worked through
990.8s
going through something that they built
993.0s
and giving them feedback on it and being
995.2s
a designer in that kind of way where
996.7s
we're like consulting. Um, and then I
999.6s
spend a part of my day in code, you
1002.1s
know, like polishing, implementing
1004.0s
stuff. Sometimes what happens is an
1006.5s
engineer and I have worked through
1008.5s
something and they've implemented a first version of it and I I just go in and polish it with them. Um, and that's and that's a really fun part of my job that I think didn't exist as much a few months ago. Are you still doing elements of the traditional design process? Prototyping,
1009.8s
first version of it and I I just go in
1011.5s
and polish it with them. Um, and that's
1014.0s
and that's a really fun part of my job
1015.6s
that I think didn't exist as much a few
1018.5s
months ago.
1019.3s
Are you still doing elements of the
1021.0s
traditional design process? Prototyping,
1023.3s
user research, uh, panels, I don't know, just like going out and in, you know, like the whole the whole thing you like the whole the whole thing you described. Yeah, we're still do I think we're still doing all of that to some extent. like we we have a user researcher on the team
1026.3s
just like going out and in, you know,
1027.8s
like the whole the whole thing you
1029.0s
like the whole the whole thing you described.
1029.8s
Yeah, we're still do I think we're still
1031.3s
doing all of that to some extent. like
1033.8s
we we have a user researcher on the team
1036.2s
who is putting together uh both like traditional studies as well as surveys and the whole team is reading that that the those studies and that feedback. We are still we are still prototyping stuff. We are still I'm still mocking stuff up. I think it's just I have a wider set of tools now and I think the
1038.9s
traditional studies as well as surveys
1040.9s
and the whole team is reading that that
1043.7s
the those studies and that feedback. We
1046.4s
are still we are still prototyping
1049.0s
stuff. We are still I'm still mocking
1051.4s
stuff up. I think it's just I have a
1054.1s
wider set of tools now and I think the
1057.5s
proportion of time I spend doing each thing just has changed. Got it. Okay. So that's a really interesting takeaway. It used to be that was a huge like I guess what would be the pie chart of what your life was before where it's like traditional thinking, planning, prototyping, mocking, research and then just like
1059.2s
thing just has changed.
1060.7s
Got it. Okay. So that's a really
1062.2s
interesting takeaway. It used to be that
1064.0s
was a huge
1065.1s
like I guess what would be the pie chart
1066.9s
of what your life was before where it's
1069.2s
like traditional
1071.2s
thinking, planning, prototyping,
1073.0s
mocking, research and then just like
1075.6s
feedback and execution and now today. Yeah. I think as a designer a few years Yeah. I think as a designer a few years ago I would say like maybe 60 to 70 of it was like mocking and prototyping stuff up and then spending you know the last 20 or so some of the last 20 or so
1078.1s
Yeah. I think as a designer a few years
1080.2s
Yeah. I think as a designer a few years ago
1081.8s
I would say like maybe 60 to 70 of it
1086.4s
was like mocking and prototyping stuff
1089.1s
up and then spending you know the last
1093.1s
20 or so some of the last 20 or so
1096.8s
like doing the sort of like jamming with engineers consulting with them and the last like 10 maybe doing you know coordination meetings etc. Uh but now I feel like the the mocking up part of it is like 30 to 40 and then there's that other 30 to 40 there that is now jamming and pairing directly with
1098.2s
engineers consulting with them and the
1100.2s
last like 10 maybe doing you know
1102.4s
coordination meetings etc. Uh but now I
1105.6s
feel like the the mocking up part of it
1107.6s
is like 30 to 40 and then there's that
1111.0s
other 30 to 40 there that is now
1114.0s
jamming and pairing directly with
1115.5s
engineers and then there's like a slice I don't know how much I have left but but like there's a slice of it that is now like implementation as well. now like implementation as well. Yeah. Like actually building and shipping. Like actually building and shipping. Yeah. Amazing. So kind of following that
1117.4s
I don't know how much I have left but
1119.2s
but like there's a slice of it that is
1120.8s
now like implementation as well.
1123.7s
now like implementation as well. Yeah.
1124.0s
Like actually building and shipping.
1125.7s
Like actually building and shipping. Yeah.
1126.1s
Amazing. So kind of following that
1128.1s
thread, what's in your AI stack? What do you as a designer? I know you're a manager. I want to talk about how you actually are I see also what's in your AI stack. What tools are you using in your role? What is in my AI stack? Um well, we we're working on topics. So, it's we're
1130.3s
you as a designer? I know you're a
1131.7s
manager. I want to talk about how you
1133.0s
actually are I see also what's in your
1135.7s
AI stack. What tools are you using in
1137.2s
your role?
1137.4s
What is in my AI stack? Um well, we
1139.9s
we're working on topics. So, it's we're
1141.6s
going deep on the cloud stack. Yeah. Um I am I'm using obviously like chat uh cloud chat and then but increasingly more and more cloud co-work. I've basically shifted all of my chat use cases over to co-work um because I've been finding that yeah it sort of is better at these longer running tasks and
1143.5s
Um I am I'm using obviously like chat uh
1148.2s
cloud chat and then but increasingly
1150.0s
more and more cloud co-work. I've
1151.8s
basically shifted all of my chat use
1154.6s
cases over to co-work um because I've
1156.5s
been finding that yeah it sort of is
1159.0s
better at these longer running tasks and
1160.8s
most of the things I was asking claude for are these these longer running tasks and then there's cloud code of course I use it mostly in the with with VS code in the IDE because I'm usually tweaking frontend stuff and it helps to just like be able to see the code and then talk to
1162.1s
for are these these longer running tasks
1164.9s
and then there's cloud code of course I
1167.3s
use it mostly in the with with VS code
1170.3s
in the IDE because I'm usually tweaking
1171.9s
frontend stuff and it helps to just like
1173.9s
be able to see the code and then talk to
1175.8s
to claude as well. I've been trying to actually use cloud code more uh remotely like through both mobile and through Slack as well. Um it's really fun for somebody to say like oh yeah this this one icons off or something and you just at mention Claude and Claude does it and
1178.2s
actually use cloud code more uh remotely
1181.4s
like through both mobile and through
1183.8s
Slack as well. Um it's really fun for
1186.6s
somebody to say like oh yeah this this
1188.9s
one icons off or something and you just
1191.0s
at mention Claude and Claude does it and
1192.7s
then you pick up the PR and it's done. That's been really really fun too. And yeah I think that's just like I think we're a fully Claude house here. So yes that's basically my stack. Are you still using Figma as a designer? I am still using Figma. Yes. Yes. Okay. I was waiting to hear. Okay. So,
1194.8s
That's been really really fun too. And
1197.9s
yeah I think that's just like I think
1199.4s
we're a fully Claude house here. So yes
1202.1s
that's basically my stack.
1204.2s
Are you still using Figma as a designer?
1205.9s
I am still using Figma. Yes. Yes.
1207.8s
Okay. I was waiting to hear. Okay. So,
1209.9s
Figma is still part of your your life. Uh being a former Figmate, is that is that what you were called? Yeah. Yeah. Figates. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, I know there's this big debate on Twitter just like is code the future of design. Do we need to like Figma anymore? Do we need to design?
1211.9s
Uh being a former Figmate, is that is
1214.2s
that what you were called?
1215.0s
Yeah. Yeah. Figates. Yeah.
1216.5s
Yeah. Okay. So, I know there's this big
1218.6s
debate on Twitter just like is code the
1220.9s
future of design. Do we need to like
1222.4s
Figma anymore? Do we need to design?
1224.3s
What's your what's your sense? Figma is still important. I mean, as a as a former Figmate, I I'm maybe even biased in that way, but I I I think there is still like when I use Figma, I'm like, yes, this is what I should be using and it still fills a very good gap for me.
1226.2s
still important. I mean, as a as a
1228.2s
former Figmate, I I'm maybe even biased
1230.3s
in that way, but I I I think there is
1232.2s
still like when I use Figma, I'm like,
1235.3s
yes, this is what I should be using and
1237.5s
it still fills a very good gap for me.
1239.9s
Um, I think a lot of that is actually just like one is exploring a lot of different options. I think that's a really important part of the design process to be able to just think about like eight to 10 different ways to do something. Um, I think the best design happens when you're able to just like
1241.6s
just like one is exploring a lot of
1243.9s
different options. I think that's a
1245.1s
really important part of the design
1246.3s
process to be able to just think about
1249.6s
like eight to 10 different ways to do
1251.4s
something. Um, I think the best design
1253.9s
happens when you're able to just like
1255.3s
throw a bunch of ideas at the wall and curate and just like and and push yourself to to come up with a bunch of these different directions. Right now, coding or or right now working with some of these coding tools doesn't lend itself super well to that because it's super linear. You super invest in one
1257.7s
curate and just like and and push
1260.2s
yourself to to come up with a bunch of
1261.4s
these different directions. Right now,
1264.4s
coding or or right now working with some
1266.6s
of these coding tools doesn't lend
1268.1s
itself super well to that because it's
1269.8s
super linear. You super invest in one
1271.8s
direction and you just iterate with cloud on them for example. Um, so I Figma has been really great at just like exploring all these different options and I think it's still going to exist that way to some extent. And then I think there's like really fine sort of visual and interaction details that are
1273.3s
cloud on them for example. Um, so I
1276.4s
Figma has been really great at just like
1278.8s
exploring all these different options
1280.1s
and I think it's still going to exist
1281.4s
that way to some extent. And then I
1283.3s
think there's like really fine sort of
1286.3s
visual and interaction details that are
1288.5s
also really great to to to be able to just try out in Figma. Again, it's a lot of different directions, but it's micro directions. It's being able to think about like different typography or styles. Having those in a canvas where you can just explore that specifically is still so so helpful and is not
1291.0s
just try out in Figma. Again, it's a lot
1293.0s
of different directions, but it's micro
1294.6s
directions. It's being able to think
1296.7s
about like different typography or
1299.4s
styles. Having those in a canvas where
1303.0s
you can just explore that specifically
1305.4s
is still so so helpful and is not
1308.2s
something that I always want to like go directly to code in. It's interesting you still use an IDE because in engineering it's clearly shifting to uh command lines, agents, ids are kind of moving moving to not be cool anymore. So it's and it makes a lot of sense. you just want to edit some CSS things, some like
1310.1s
directly to code in.
1311.4s
It's interesting you still use an IDE
1313.2s
because in engineering it's clearly
1315.3s
shifting to uh command lines, agents,
1318.6s
ids are kind of moving moving to not be
1321.2s
cool anymore. So it's and it makes a lot
1322.6s
of sense. you just want to edit some CSS
1324.3s
things, some like
1325.7s
color stuff. And so I could see why not just telling the agent, hey, just come on, change this one hex value, just changing it is so much easier. Yeah, it's really annoying to be like, can you change this to this class when you can just go in and change it to a different class?
1327.8s
just telling the agent, hey, just come
1329.3s
on, change this one hex value, just
1331.2s
changing it is so much easier.
1332.8s
Yeah, it's really annoying to be like,
1334.1s
can you change this to this class when
1336.1s
you can just go in and change it to a
1337.8s
different class?
1338.5s
So that's interesting. I wonder if IDs now become the useful for designers and PMs and engineers have moved on. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Okay. So a lot of your time you spend working with engineers, giving them feedback, kind of nudging them in the right direction. There's a sense I feel of just like like your advice is like
1340.6s
now become the useful for designers and
1342.6s
PMs and engineers have moved on.
1344.6s
Yeah, maybe. Yeah.
1346.0s
Okay. So a lot of your time you spend
1348.1s
working with engineers, giving them
1349.4s
feedback, kind of nudging them in the
1351.0s
right direction. There's a sense I feel
1353.0s
of just like like your advice is like
1355.0s
let go. Don't feel like you need to be this gatekeeper, but there's this piece of okay, help them move in a direction that is cohesive and is creating products we're proud of. A lot of designers, I think, are in this boat right now just like, oh my god, I can't keep up with all these engineers
1357.4s
this gatekeeper, but there's this piece
1360.1s
of okay, help them move in a direction
1362.6s
that is cohesive and is creating
1365.3s
products we're proud of. A lot of
1367.2s
designers, I think, are in this boat
1368.5s
right now just like, oh my god, I can't
1370.0s
keep up with all these engineers
1371.2s
shipping stuff all day. What's something you learned about just either how to help your engineers get better at design so that it just ends up being better or just kind of keeping on top of this and not going crazy? Whenever I do work with engineers on projects and it's more on like a
1373.0s
you learned about just either how to
1374.7s
help your engineers get better at design
1377.7s
so that it just ends up being better or
1380.8s
just kind of keeping on top of this and
1383.0s
not going crazy?
1384.2s
Whenever I do work with engineers on
1387.3s
projects and it's more on like a
1388.6s
consulting basis, I do just try to explain, you know, why I'm thinking the way that I'm thinking to help them like extract principles as opposed to me just being like, No, I don't think this should go here. It's like, No, I think we should have a button here because not everybody realizes you can prompt this.
1390.7s
explain, you know, why I'm thinking the
1393.1s
way that I'm thinking to help them like
1395.3s
extract principles as opposed to me just
1397.7s
being like, No, I don't think this
1398.7s
should go here. It's like, No, I think
1400.3s
we should have a button here because not
1401.8s
everybody realizes you can prompt this.
1404.1s
Um, and and here's an example where it comes from research and whatnot. So, I also just like try to point engineers to our design system and stuff like that and code because right now Claude is like writing a lot of the code and it's like not always it's not always like picking up stuff in the design system
1406.4s
comes from research and whatnot. So, I
1408.8s
also just like try to point engineers to
1411.4s
our design system and stuff like that
1413.0s
and code because right now Claude is
1414.9s
like writing a lot of the code and it's
1416.2s
like not always it's not always like
1417.7s
picking up stuff in the design system
1418.9s
and whatnot. So, as much as I can sort of equip them with stuff that they can use in the future without me, that's helpful. And then on your point of trying not to go crazy, I think it's hard, you know. I think it's really hard right now. And I I see this a lot from
1420.4s
of equip them with stuff that they can
1422.6s
use in the future without me, that's
1426.2s
helpful. And then on your point of
1429.9s
trying not to go crazy, I think it's
1431.4s
hard, you know. I think it's really hard
1433.0s
right now. And I I see this a lot from
1435.8s
actually like both engineers and designers where it's like now that we're sort of capable of doing so much, we want to do more. Uh and and so I think it's not just designers who are feeling like, oh yeah, we have to keep up with engineers. I think even engineers are
1437.4s
designers where it's like now that we're
1439.2s
sort of capable of doing so much, we
1441.4s
want to do more. Uh and and so I think
1444.2s
it's not just designers who are feeling
1445.8s
like, oh yeah, we have to keep up with
1447.2s
engineers. I think even engineers are
1448.9s
like, how do we how do we keep up with ourselves right now? So that's something I'm hearing a lot. That's so true. Oh man, how to keep up with all our agents. Our seven agents we're constantly running. we're constantly running. Yeah. Okay. So then as a designer where in this profession, craft and great
1450.2s
ourselves right now? So that's something
1452.4s
I'm hearing a lot.
1453.5s
That's so true. Oh man, how to keep up
1455.8s
with all our agents. Our seven agents
1457.3s
we're constantly running.
1458.5s
we're constantly running. Yeah.
1459.1s
Okay. So then as a designer where in
1462.2s
this profession, craft and great
1464.2s
experience and quality and trust are such a core part of the job to help instill that in the products because that in theory leads to really successful products and companies. How do you just think about maintaining craft quality, trust as your products are just shipping a thousand times a day
1466.6s
such a core part of the job to help
1469.0s
instill that in the products because
1471.4s
that in theory leads to really
1473.4s
successful products and companies. How
1475.6s
do you just think about maintaining
1478.2s
craft quality, trust as your products
1481.0s
are just shipping a thousand times a day
1483.1s
and you're not able to stay on top of them and there's no designer involved? It's not that there's no designer involved. It's more just like there's it's almost that there's too much for one designer uh to handle. But um I think with this I think about where the features or products are that like where
1484.6s
them and there's no designer involved?
1486.4s
It's not that there's no designer
1487.6s
involved. It's more just like there's
1489.3s
it's almost that there's too much for
1490.8s
one designer uh to handle. But um I
1494.9s
think with this I think about where the
1499.1s
features or products are that like where
1502.2s
they are sort of in the cycle of adoption versus like kind of early preview. So for example like we sometimes will launch things and we will say hey this is a research preview. It's it's early. It's going to have a bunch of these flaws and and we caveat that a bunch. I think Quad Co-work is actually
1504.8s
adoption versus like kind of early
1506.9s
preview. So for example like we
1510.4s
sometimes will launch things and we will
1512.2s
say hey this is a research preview. It's
1514.3s
it's early. It's going to have a bunch
1516.4s
of these flaws and and we caveat that a
1518.3s
bunch. I think Quad Co-work is actually
1520.6s
a good example of this where we labeled it a research preview and we put it out there knowing that hey this is like similar to our models. You know, this is the worst it's ever going to be, but we're going to put it out there because we believe, you know, internally we've
1522.4s
it a research preview and we put it out
1524.9s
there knowing that hey this is like
1527.5s
similar to our models. You know, this is
1528.9s
the worst it's ever going to be, but
1530.6s
we're going to put it out there because
1531.7s
we believe, you know, internally we've
1533.3s
tried it a bunch and there's something really powerful here that some people will benefit from. It might not yet be the easiest to work with. It might not be the highest quality. it might have some issues with it, but we're going to put it out there because we believe the benefits outweigh the cons. I think that
1534.9s
really powerful here that some people
1537.1s
will benefit from. It might not yet be
1539.3s
the easiest to work with. It might not
1541.4s
be the highest quality. it might have
1543.6s
some issues with it, but we're going to
1545.6s
put it out there because we believe the
1547.0s
benefits outweigh the cons. I think that
1550.6s
is like okay to do, especially when there is something really valuable with the product already and it's worth putting it out there. But I think the promise you sort of have to make your users is is like, hey, we're going to put it out there, but we're going to we're going to iterate. We're going to
1553.8s
there is something really valuable with
1555.7s
the product already and it's worth
1557.1s
putting it out there. But I think the
1558.6s
promise you sort of have to make your
1560.2s
users is is like, hey, we're going to
1563.2s
put it out there, but we're going to
1564.2s
we're going to iterate. We're going to
1565.3s
take your feedback and we're going to iterate and we're going to make it better. And you have to sort of commit that. You have to show that to the world. You have to respond to people's feedback and you have to show that you are continuously shipping and improving it because I think the way that you
1566.3s
iterate and we're going to make it
1567.2s
better. And you have to sort of commit
1568.7s
that. You have to show that to the
1570.0s
world. You have to respond to people's
1572.0s
feedback and you have to show that you
1574.0s
are continuously shipping and improving
1575.6s
it because I think the way that you
1577.4s
really lose trust around quality and releasing something early is if you release it early and then nothing ever happens. That that is what something that degrades a brand but whenever you put something out early like it's it's possible to do that and like maintain the brand of of your company. And I think I think that's something that
1579.4s
releasing something early is if you
1580.7s
release it early and then nothing ever
1583.2s
happens. That that is what something
1584.3s
that degrades a brand but whenever you
1587.0s
put something out early like it's it's
1589.8s
possible to do that and like maintain
1591.9s
the brand of of your company. And I
1594.1s
think I think that's something that
1595.4s
we've been doing pretty well and and I think if there's anything anyone's listening that can if anyone's listening can take away from it is like yeah we're continuing to do that and and I think that is actually really fun for me as a designer because you put something out there and you actually learn and you get
1597.8s
think if there's anything anyone's
1599.4s
listening that can if anyone's listening
1601.9s
can take away from it is like yeah we're
1603.6s
continuing to do that and and I think
1605.8s
that is actually really fun for me as a
1607.5s
designer because you put something out
1610.1s
there and you actually learn and you get
1612.6s
feedback about it immediately and you know what to do next. The way I've heard you describe this is building trust through speed. Yeah, for sure. It's yeah, it's building trust through speed, but also just like making people feel like they've been heard and that we're fixing things based on what they're trying to use it for and
1614.2s
know what to do next.
1615.5s
The way I've heard you describe this is
1617.0s
building trust through speed.
1618.6s
Yeah, for sure. It's yeah, it's building
1620.2s
trust through speed, but also just like
1622.6s
making people feel like they've been
1624.1s
heard and that we're fixing things based
1626.2s
on what they're trying to use it for and
1629.0s
their feedback is actually appreciated and used. Yeah, it's clear when when the labs launch stuff and you all are very good at this. Everyone on the team is tweeting and just like responding to tweets and comments and and then shipping, hey, we fixed this yesterday and this is happening. So there's a
1630.9s
and used.
1631.7s
Yeah, it's clear when when the labs
1634.5s
launch stuff and you all are very good
1636.4s
at this. Everyone on the team is
1638.1s
tweeting and just like responding to
1640.1s
tweets and comments and and then
1642.0s
shipping, hey, we fixed this yesterday
1643.8s
and this is happening. So there's a
1645.5s
clear sense of this is just today and we know this is broken and we will fix it and and then because cloud code can code very quickly. Uh the fixes come very very quickly. Uh the fixes come very fast. Okay. So another big question that people are asking that I ask a lot on
1648.2s
know this is broken and we will fix it
1649.9s
and and then because cloud code can code
1652.9s
very quickly. Uh the fixes come very
1654.7s
very quickly. Uh the fixes come very fast.
1656.3s
Okay. So another big question that
1659.4s
people are asking that I ask a lot on
1660.9s
this podcast is around just like what skills become valuable and like another way I've been thinking about it Lex put it this way recently is where will human brains continue to be valuable as AI gets smarter. So we've gone through this progression of uh tab completing segments of code to 100 of code is
1662.4s
skills become valuable and like another
1665.1s
way I've been thinking about it Lex put
1666.5s
it this way recently is where will human
1668.0s
brains continue to be valuable as AI
1670.9s
gets smarter. So we've gone through this
1673.0s
progression of uh tab completing
1676.2s
segments of code to 100 of code is
1679.2s
written by AI now like it's crazy to now AI is reviewing its own code. Boris on the podcast recently was saying cloud code is now helping him come up with ideas and decide what to build which is like okay wow look at that look at it go the whole product workflows the product
1682.2s
AI is reviewing its own code. Boris on
1685.1s
the podcast recently was saying cloud
1686.5s
code is now helping him come up with
1687.8s
ideas and decide what to build which is
1690.3s
like okay wow look at that look at it go
1692.4s
the whole product workflows the product
1694.6s
development process slowly get eaten up by AI. So the question is just like where will human brains still be useful at least until we have super intelligence? Do you think like a do you think AI is going to get very very good at taste judgment design? I think it will get better at taste and
1696.5s
by AI. So the question is just like
1699.0s
where will human brains still be useful
1701.3s
at least until we have super
1702.6s
intelligence? Do you think like a do you
1704.6s
think AI is going to get very very good
1706.9s
at taste judgment design?
1710.3s
I think it will get better at taste and
1712.1s
judgment and design. Yeah. Like I I think we we might be holding on to that a little bit too much and saying like oh yeah like you know a a designer or somebody will always know the the best thing to ship or the best version of this and I
1714.2s
think we
1716.0s
we might be holding on to that a little
1719.7s
bit too much and saying like oh yeah
1721.5s
like you know a a designer or somebody
1724.2s
will always know the the best thing to
1726.6s
ship or the best version of this and I
1728.6s
but I do think AI that like AI sense of taste will get better at the end of the day. Someone has to decide like what is actually going to get built and and what actually matters. And and when I think about people saying like, oh, you know, like AI is just going to build this
1731.2s
taste will get better at the end of the
1733.2s
day. Someone has to decide like what is
1735.0s
actually going to get built and and what
1737.5s
actually matters. And and when I think
1739.9s
about people saying like, oh, you know,
1741.7s
like AI is just going to build this
1743.0s
software for us, a lot of the hard parts of building software are actually like not building it. You know, if you think about the hardest times that you've had at work, honey, is probably things like, oh, you and some other person like disagreeing about like what should go into this feature or what shouldn't go
1746.3s
of building software are actually like
1748.2s
not building it. You know, if you think
1750.7s
about the hardest times that you've had
1752.1s
at work, honey, is probably things like,
1754.0s
oh, you and some other person like
1755.3s
disagreeing about like what should go
1757.6s
into this feature or what shouldn't go
1759.3s
into this feature. And those things still feel like yes, AI can weigh in, but it can't necessarily solve this dispute between you and somebody else. And so there is something about like deciding what actually goes into the things we build which I guess is taste in some way but maybe not taste in like
1762.0s
still feel like yes, AI can weigh in,
1764.8s
but it can't necessarily solve this
1766.5s
dispute between you and somebody else.
1768.5s
And so there is something about like
1770.2s
deciding what actually goes into the
1773.9s
things we build which I guess is taste
1776.2s
in some way but maybe not taste in like
1778.2s
the way we think about like aesthetic taste or or whatnot. There's some sort of like it's like judgment around what to do next. Just watching how quickly AI had took over coding which I think a year ago definitely two years ago most people are like I don't think so. I don't think AI
1779.8s
taste or or whatnot. There's some sort
1782.0s
of like it's like judgment around what
1784.1s
to do next.
1785.5s
Just watching how quickly AI had took
1788.2s
over coding which I think a year ago
1791.0s
definitely two years ago most people are
1793.0s
like I don't think so. I don't think AI
1795.1s
will get this good and that the best engineers in the world trust it so much they're not even looking at the code anymore. Like that's where we kind it just made me re-evaluate all these assumptions I've had about okay AI will never be as good as really good PMs designers at judging what is great and
1798.4s
engineers in the world trust it so much
1800.3s
they're not even looking at the code
1801.5s
anymore. Like that's where we kind it
1803.3s
just made me re-evaluate all these
1805.1s
assumptions I've had about okay AI will
1807.8s
never be as good as really good PMs
1810.6s
designers at judging what is great and
1813.5s
deciding what to build. But I'm just like starting to think I think it will get there. Like even in the example you shared like it could give these two people trying to make a decision. Here's all of the data you need to make a decision and here's why this is the right answer and just press yes. Press
1815.1s
like starting to think I think it will
1816.6s
get there. Like even in the example you
1819.0s
shared like it could give these two
1820.3s
people trying to make a decision. Here's
1821.8s
all of the data you need to make a
1823.8s
decision and here's why this is the
1825.3s
right answer and just press yes. Press
1827.2s
one and I'll go ahead laughter and build it. build it. Yeah. So, I think we're just Yeah. To your point, I think we undervalue just how good it'll get at this stuff. Okay. So, your sense is it'll get better, but your sense is we'll still need awesome designers to be involved, awesome PMS to help make these
1829.0s
build it.
1829.8s
build it. Yeah.
1831.2s
So, I think we're just Yeah. To your
1832.7s
point, I think we undervalue just how
1834.6s
good it'll get at this stuff.
1836.7s
Okay. So, your sense is it'll get
1838.9s
better, but your sense is we'll still
1840.7s
need awesome designers to be involved,
1843.4s
awesome PMS to help make these
1845.4s
decisions, engineers, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think someone will still have to decide like oh we want to build this kind of product or like given what the AI is presenting us like someone still needs to be accountable for the decision you know the same way that like even though cloud can write
1847.0s
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think someone will
1848.3s
still have to decide like oh we want to
1849.8s
build this kind of product or like given
1852.8s
what the AI is presenting us like
1854.5s
someone still needs to be accountable
1855.8s
for the decision you know the same way
1857.4s
that like even though cloud can write
1859.8s
all this code for you today it is still an engineer who's accountable for like does that code actually work does this actually make sense in the product so I think there's that like think there's that like decision-makingjudgment layer which feels like maybe one day we won't have to do that but it's uh it
1862.6s
an engineer who's accountable for like
1864.4s
does that code actually work does this
1866.8s
actually make sense in the product so I
1868.8s
think there's that like
1869.4s
think there's that like decision-makingjudgment
1871.2s
layer which feels like maybe one day we
1874.0s
won't have to do that but it's uh it
1876.6s
still falls on us. Yeah, it doesn't make sense. It makes me think about the radiology example where there's always the sense that AI is going to take over that field of radiology and tell you what is going on. But like the human is mostly useful for signing off on the decision because
1878.0s
it doesn't make sense. It makes me think
1879.4s
about the radiology example where
1881.4s
there's always the sense that AI is
1882.6s
going to take over that field of
1884.0s
radiology and tell you what is going on.
1886.6s
But like the human is mostly useful for
1888.2s
signing off on the decision because
1890.0s
someone needs to be liable if they're someone needs to be liable if they're wrong. Um which isn't the best job in the Um which isn't the best job in the world. But uh but that's a different game is health versus code. health versus code. Yeah. Okay. Another ongoing question in AIing
1891.4s
someone needs to be liable if they're wrong.
1892.1s
Um which isn't the best job in the
1894.3s
Um which isn't the best job in the world.
1895.7s
But uh but that's a different game is
1897.4s
health versus code.
1898.5s
health versus code. Yeah.
1899.7s
Okay. Another ongoing question in AIing
1903.2s
design is just like it feels like chat bots and terminals are just like like I don't think anyone expected this to be the lasting uh user interface to AI like chat bots. Okay. No no no this is just like a temporary stop along the journey but now it's like got even further and just terminals.
1904.8s
bots and terminals are just like like I
1907.0s
don't think anyone expected this to be
1908.5s
the lasting uh user interface to AI like
1912.0s
chat bots. Okay. No no no this is just
1913.9s
like a temporary stop along the journey
1916.2s
but now it's like got even further and
1917.9s
just terminals.
1919.8s
Um do you have thoughts on just I don't know where like do you think there will be a next step of how we interface with AI or do you think chat bots and terminals are are mostly where we end up? There will likely be a combination of both like both UIs and interfaces
1921.5s
know where like do you think there will
1923.0s
be a next step of how we interface with
1925.0s
AI or do you think chat bots and
1926.6s
terminals are are mostly where we end
1928.3s
up? There will likely be a combination
1930.2s
of both like both UIs and interfaces
1934.1s
that you are interacting with, clicking with and and and that feel like more tactile. We are already seeing this and playing with this within Claude, like the chat bot. Um, so we recently released a bunch of these widgets that let Claude sort of elicit and ask you questions and also show you, you know,
1937.3s
with and and and that feel like more
1939.2s
tactile. We are already seeing this and
1942.4s
playing with this within Claude, like
1944.9s
the chat bot. Um, so we recently
1947.4s
released a bunch of these widgets that
1949.3s
let Claude sort of elicit and ask you
1951.5s
questions and also show you, you know,
1953.8s
things like the weather and stocks and whatnot in interactive ways. And I think those have had a really good reception because people still like to see UIs and touch them and and click them and they are much more efficient than you know typing something to to Claude. But at the same time when we really leaned into
1955.2s
whatnot in interactive ways. And I think
1957.8s
those have had a really good reception
1959.2s
because people still like to see UIs and
1963.8s
touch them and and click them and they
1965.8s
are much more efficient than you know
1968.5s
typing something to to Claude. But at
1971.0s
the same time when we really leaned into
1973.2s
this like chatbot paradigm like I think that just gave us this whole world of flexibility that we didn't get with these sort of like baked in UIs. Um, so my read here is like I don't think Tad is ever going away because this opened up this like new way of like infinite
1975.9s
that just gave us this whole world of
1977.7s
flexibility that we didn't get with
1979.8s
these sort of like baked in UIs. Um, so
1982.5s
my read here is like I don't think Tad
1984.6s
is ever going away because this opened
1986.6s
up this like new way of like infinite
1990.5s
ways to to work with the model and to sort of like talk to the computer that we just didn't have before. But I think that it will still be most direct for very specific things to exist in this UI. And I think that what will probably happen here is that a lot of those UIs
1992.8s
sort of like talk to the computer that
1995.7s
we just didn't have before. But I think
1997.8s
that it will still be most direct for
2000.2s
very specific things to exist in this
2002.5s
UI. And I think that what will probably
2003.8s
happen here is that a lot of those UIs
2005.9s
will be generated more and more often by the models as opposed to something that we're like hand coding each instance. But I think we yeah we're in this space where I don't I don't think chat and and and and maybe even like talking to the terminal is is going to go away. It's interesting that like with openclaw
2008.9s
the models as opposed to something that
2010.6s
we're like hand coding each instance.
2013.4s
But I think we yeah we're in this space
2016.4s
where I don't I don't think chat and and
2018.1s
and and maybe even like talking to the
2019.8s
terminal is is going to go away. It's
2021.7s
interesting that like with openclaw
2023.3s
claude mbot all the names the innovation one of the big innovations is like another way to chat with it through WhatsApp and telegram and SMS just like another form of chatbot but that just like that was a big unlock oh I could just chat with it through I could just chat with it through WhatsApp.
2025.4s
one of the big innovations is like
2026.8s
another way to chat with it through
2028.5s
WhatsApp and telegram and SMS
2030.9s
just like another form of chatbot but
2032.5s
that just like that was a big unlock oh
2034.1s
I could just chat with it through
2035.0s
I could just chat with it through WhatsApp.
2035.6s
Yeah. And it's like you like chatting and talking to someone is still like you know we as humans are doing it. And so and it's a way for us to interact in a really rich way and now we just have this other medium to like interact with a computer basically.
2037.8s
and talking to someone is still like you
2040.6s
know we as humans are doing it. And so
2042.5s
and it's a way for us to interact in a
2045.0s
really rich way and now we just have
2047.2s
this other medium to like interact with
2049.8s
a computer basically.
2051.4s
Yeah. Um so Kevin Wheel uh who works at another AI lab I won't mention. He had this great point on the podcast that talking is such a beautiful way to handle every level of intelligence. We can talk to people that are very very smart and not so smart and it's talking and it scales. so well across the
2054.4s
another AI lab I won't mention. He had
2057.4s
this great point on the podcast that
2060.6s
talking is such a beautiful way to
2063.3s
handle every level of intelligence. We
2066.6s
can talk to people that are very very
2068.6s
smart and not so smart and it's talking
2070.8s
and it scales. so well across the
2073.0s
spectrum. We can talk to people at 200 IQ 300 like it's talking still works. So that's why it's been this beautiful way to deal with the growing intelligence of models and it continues to work. Yeah, that totally makes sense. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Omni. Many product teams today are in the
2074.9s
IQ 300 like it's talking still works. So
2077.5s
that's why it's been this beautiful way
2079.1s
to deal with the growing intelligence of
2081.4s
models and it continues to work.
2082.8s
Yeah, that totally makes sense. Yeah.
2084.7s
This episode is brought to you by Omni.
2087.0s
Many product teams today are in the
2088.8s
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2096.6s
is a huge mess and just a bad idea. Omni
2099.5s
takes a different approach. They have a
2101.6s
semantic layer built in so that when you
2104.2s
embed their analytics, the AI actually
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2108.4s
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2110.5s
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2112.6s
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2114.2s
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2116.4s
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2122.3s
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2136.1s
idea of management and IC. So, so you've spent you've kind of put yourself back into the IC role in a lot of ways. Talk about that and if you think that's just like a thing design managers need to be like a thing design managers need to be doing. Yeah, I have takes on this. Um, yeah.
2139.9s
spent you've kind of put yourself back
2141.8s
into the IC role in a lot of ways. Talk
2143.9s
about that and if you think that's just
2145.9s
like a thing design managers need to be
2147.8s
like a thing design managers need to be doing.
2149.0s
Yeah, I have takes on this. Um, yeah.
2151.1s
So, this past year at Anthropic, I joined as an IC at first. Um, and then I managed a team for a few months in in like an orch structure that sort of needed it. And now I'm actually back to doing full-time IC work. And I joined Endopic as an IC cuz I was just really
2153.4s
joined as an IC at first. Um, and then I
2157.4s
managed a team for a few months in in
2160.6s
like an orch structure that sort of
2161.8s
needed it. And now I'm actually back to
2163.6s
doing full-time IC work. And I joined
2167.4s
Endopic as an IC cuz I was just really
2170.6s
excited about the kind of work that there was to be done as an IC here, but also because I was feeling like, you know, I I I sort of want to be close to the work and I I think this feels like a really important time to do it before I like ascend the corporate ranks, you
2172.5s
there was to be done as an IC here, but
2175.0s
also because I was feeling like, you
2178.2s
know, I I I sort of want to be close to
2179.9s
the work and I I think this feels like a
2183.1s
really important time to do it before I
2185.2s
like ascend the corporate ranks, you
2187.0s
know, and and I was having these like questions and doubts about like is is middle management like is that safe in the future? like are is is is the way that we're working actually is this going to be a job that persists into the future or or should I you know try something else
2188.6s
questions and doubts about like is is
2190.9s
middle management like is that safe in
2193.6s
the future? like are is is is the way
2196.5s
that we're working actually is this
2198.6s
going to be a job that persists into the
2202.2s
future or
2204.2s
or should I you know try something else
2205.8s
and like get my hands dirty kind of thing. Um and and to be totally fair like I actually love both sides of the coin like I loved I love managing people. I love like setting up teams um and being at that level but I also just really loved IC work. Like I was sort of
2207.4s
thing. Um and and to be totally fair
2209.0s
like I actually love both sides of the
2210.6s
coin like I loved I love managing
2212.8s
people. I love like setting up teams um
2215.3s
and being at that level but I also just
2217.4s
really loved IC work. Like I was sort of
2219.0s
like a reluctant manager when I did it and I was like okay I'll do it. Um, so I love both sides of these co the coin like pretty equally. But I think actually what being an ICO across this past year has taught me is that it actually just like gave me a lot of
2220.5s
and I was like okay I'll do it. Um, so I
2222.9s
love both sides of these co the coin
2224.6s
like pretty equally. But I think
2226.5s
actually what being an ICO across this
2229.0s
past year has taught me is that it
2231.8s
actually just like gave me a lot of
2233.0s
skills that I I don't think I would have gained if I was just managing throughout this year. Um, like the design, like I mentioned, the design process has changed so so much in this past year and I feel like I've just picked up so many hard skills that I wouldn't have
2234.9s
gained if I was just managing throughout
2236.9s
this year. Um, like the design, like I
2238.6s
mentioned, the design process has
2239.8s
changed so so much in this past year and
2242.1s
I feel like I've just picked up so many
2243.5s
hard skills that I wouldn't have
2245.4s
necessarily had the time to do if I was just managing a team. Um, so that's actually the best thing it's afforded me. And I think at any point if I'm like managing a team again, I think it will give me the empathy and understanding of how the design process has changed. And I think that's actually a really
2247.7s
just managing a team. Um, so that's
2249.8s
actually the best thing it's afforded
2251.0s
me. And I think at any point if I'm like
2253.0s
managing a team again, I think it will
2255.9s
give me the empathy and understanding of
2258.1s
how the design process has changed. And
2260.0s
I think that's actually a really
2261.1s
important thing right now because yeah, the teams are working so differently. I think it's actually pretty hard to empathize if you are not working in that way or you're like not always like testing all the tools and trying stuff. But yeah, like it's it's an interesting time to be a designer and if I had not
2263.7s
the teams are working so differently. I
2265.8s
think it's actually pretty hard to
2267.2s
empathize if you are not working in that
2269.5s
way or you're like not always like
2270.9s
testing all the tools and trying stuff.
2272.9s
But yeah, like it's it's an interesting
2274.4s
time to be a designer and if I had not
2276.9s
worked in this environment, I don't know if I would have totally understood it or like knew what to do or how to guide my teams. So that that's sort of what this year really gave me. And so you were previously a director of design at Figma, right? How big was your
2278.1s
if I would have totally understood it or
2279.9s
like knew what to do or how to guide my
2281.7s
teams. So that that's sort of what this
2284.1s
year really gave me.
2285.8s
And so you were previously a director of
2287.8s
design at Figma, right? How big was your
2289.7s
team? Like how large was your or just to give people reference? At the max I probably had, I think 12, 15 designers or so and and I had a few managers as well. So cool. And then yeah okay so you had this sense that middle management might not last what's your current feeling do you think manage
2292.3s
give people reference?
2293.7s
At the max I probably had, I think 12,
2298.1s
15 designers or so and and I had a few
2300.5s
managers as well. So
2301.6s
cool. And then
2303.5s
yeah okay so you had this sense that
2306.1s
middle management might not last what's
2308.7s
your current feeling do you think manage
2310.6s
design management is a thing that persists long term or do you think everyone turns into IC I think as long as there is a team of people it it helps to have somebody who is managing a team like I think there is there's like real value in managers it depends kind of like what the shape of
2311.8s
persists long term or do you think
2313.1s
everyone turns into IC
2314.6s
I think as long as there is a team of
2317.2s
people it it helps to have somebody who
2319.8s
is managing a team like I think there is
2321.8s
there's like real value in managers it
2324.2s
depends kind of like what the shape of
2325.5s
the manager is and what they actually do but the way I think about like what a helpful manager is these days is somebody who is not just like I think pure people management like oh like just somebody to sort of set you up help you in your career have one-on- ones make
2327.6s
but the way I think about like what a
2331.0s
helpful manager is these days is
2333.0s
somebody who is not just like I think
2335.0s
pure people management like oh like just
2337.4s
somebody to sort of set you up help you
2338.9s
in your career have one-on- ones make
2341.0s
sure you're feeling like good at work I think that that is kind of not a thing as much anymore but I think somebody who can really function as like giving the team direction as well as doing some of the people management stuff like that tied together I think is the future of
2343.4s
think that that is kind of not a thing
2346.0s
as much anymore but I think somebody who
2348.2s
can really function as like giving the
2350.2s
team direction as well as doing some of
2351.8s
the people management stuff like that
2353.4s
tied together I think is the future of
2356.3s
what managing looks like at least for now um like somebody who can really engage with the team in terms of like the work and giving direction there. Um, as well as like creating the environment for them to do their best work. And do you see yourself going back into management long term?
2357.8s
now um like somebody who can really
2359.4s
engage with the team in terms of like
2361.0s
the work and giving direction there. Um,
2363.4s
as well as like creating the environment
2364.8s
for them to do their best work.
2366.2s
And do you see yourself going back into
2367.6s
management long term?
2368.8s
I probably will. I probably will. Like I I think I I really just love, you know, helping a team like build the best product possible. And my my motto there is like whatever it takes. You know, if it's somebody that if if if the team needs somebody to give the team
2370.4s
I think I I really just love, you know,
2373.4s
helping a team like build the best
2374.8s
product possible. And my my motto there
2378.2s
is like whatever it takes. You know, if
2380.2s
it's somebody that if if if the team
2382.9s
needs somebody to give the team
2384.2s
direction and like set up the team and whatnot, that could be me. If the team just like needs somebody to execute on it, that could be me as well. So the advice I'm hearing for people in design that are especially managers is you almost need to move back into IC in order to truly understand what is
2385.6s
whatnot, that could be me. If the team
2387.3s
just like needs somebody to execute on
2388.7s
it, that could be me as well. So the
2390.6s
advice I'm hearing for people in design
2392.8s
that are especially managers is you
2394.7s
almost need to move back into IC in
2397.6s
order to truly understand what is
2399.8s
happening and how much it's changing so that you can be a better manager. I think so. And I think traditionally um at least what I've seen a lot of like the engineering disciplines like when they hire EM or even sometimes like directors there they actually make the EM like take a rotation for a few months
2401.9s
that you can be a better manager. I
2403.5s
think so. And I think traditionally um
2405.4s
at least what I've seen a lot of like
2407.0s
the engineering disciplines like when
2409.0s
they hire EM or even sometimes like
2411.2s
directors there they actually make the
2413.3s
EM like take a rotation for a few months
2416.0s
and and pick up a few tasks and really understand how the technology works before they become a full-time manager. And I think design probably needs to do something similar too where I think in the past design has been much more like people management oriented. What did you find yourself most rusty in when you
2418.8s
understand how the technology works
2420.6s
before they become a full-time manager.
2423.7s
And I think design probably needs to do
2425.2s
something similar too where I think in
2427.2s
the past design has been much more like
2429.4s
people management oriented. What did you
2431.5s
find yourself most rusty in when you
2433.5s
went back to IC designer? Actually like doing crits, you know, um and just getting criticized. Yeah. Getting criticized. You're like, Oh, yeah. Like it is hard to get uh it is hard to get critical feedback and to hear it and to hear on such a regular basis because that's the thing you have
2435.3s
Actually like doing crits, you know, um
2438.5s
and just getting criticized. Yeah.
2440.6s
Getting criticized. You're like, Oh,
2442.5s
yeah. Like it is hard to get uh it is
2445.1s
hard to get critical feedback and to
2446.8s
hear it and to hear on such a regular
2448.5s
basis because that's the thing you have
2450.5s
to do as a designer is like it's a pretty vulnerable exercise to share work and present it with your team and then also just get a lot of critical feedback and and take that all the time. and and take that all the time. Yeah. So currently you're you're leading design uh slic designing on co-work is that right?
2452.3s
pretty vulnerable exercise to share work
2455.3s
and present it with your team and then
2457.3s
also just get a lot of critical feedback
2459.3s
and and take that all the time.
2461.7s
and and take that all the time. Yeah.
2462.8s
So currently you're you're leading
2464.4s
design uh slic designing on co-work is
2467.4s
that right?
2468.0s
that right? Yeah. Awesome. So Boris, he was on the pod recently talked about how there's like a lot of debate about what co-work should be and there's all these big ideas and he's like in the end let's just make it like a terminal basically in the product and just kind of a fancy terminal. Is
2468.5s
Awesome. So Boris, he was on the pod
2470.5s
recently talked about how there's like a
2472.3s
lot of debate about what co-work should
2473.8s
be and there's all these big ideas and
2475.6s
he's like in the end let's just make it
2477.0s
like a terminal basically in the product
2479.8s
and just kind of a fancy terminal. Is
2482.1s
there anything you could share about just the process of landing on where you landed for that experience of co-work? I have it here on my monitor by the way looking at it. With co-work specifically we have had a bunch of different prototypes internally of what that could look like. Um, and
2483.1s
just the process of landing on where you
2484.7s
landed for that experience of co-work? I
2486.4s
have it here on my monitor by the way
2487.8s
looking at it.
2489.0s
With co-work specifically we have had a
2492.6s
bunch of different prototypes internally
2495.0s
of what that could look like. Um, and
2498.2s
it's one of those things where we tried a lot of things and then we I think we weren't really sure like when it was actually going to be ready to ship and then it was sort of like everything all at once. Like we were like, Okay, we're going to we're going to ship it soon.
2500.5s
a lot of things and then we I think we
2502.6s
weren't really sure like when it was
2504.0s
actually going to be ready to ship and
2505.6s
then it was sort of like everything all
2506.6s
at once. Like we were like, Okay, we're
2507.8s
going to we're going to ship it soon.
2509.4s
It was It was 10 days. 10 days of It was It was 10 days. 10 days of building. Yeah, it was it was it was definitely longer than that. Like overall it was like 10 days to get it from what we had internally to something that we were ready to ship externally. So we'd been
2511.0s
It was It was 10 days. 10 days of building.
2511.6s
Yeah, it was it was it was definitely
2513.5s
longer than that. Like overall it was
2515.2s
like 10 days to get it from what we had
2517.4s
internally to something that we were
2519.5s
ready to ship externally. So we'd been
2521.6s
building it for a while, but we weren't really sure about like the actual form it was going to take. Um, and so the way it got there is actually there was a lot of different other explorations that we had internally on top of different agent harnesses and whatnot. And we just had prototyped little parts of the different
2523.4s
really sure about like the actual form
2525.2s
it was going to take. Um, and so the way
2527.2s
it got there is actually there was a lot
2529.0s
of different other explorations that we
2531.0s
had internally on top of different agent
2532.9s
harnesses and whatnot. And we just had
2535.7s
prototyped little parts of the different
2538.1s
interactions that ended up in co-work. So things like um when Claude gives you a to-do list, we tried a bunch of different form factors for that. We tried a bunch of different form factors for the way it uh presents you different like multiple choice questions. We tried a bunch of different um ways to teach
2540.2s
So things like um when Claude gives you
2543.0s
a to-do list, we tried a bunch of
2544.5s
different form factors for that. We
2546.4s
tried a bunch of different form factors
2547.8s
for the way it uh presents you different
2551.4s
like multiple choice questions. We tried
2554.0s
a bunch of different um ways to teach
2556.8s
people what the use cases are and whatnot. And I don't know if we like landed on the best form factor ever, but uh essentially it was like stuff that was sort of already working internally that people liked that we just thought we were going to get some more signal on by by releasing it. So I think forcing
2558.1s
whatnot. And I don't know if we like
2560.1s
landed on the best form factor ever, but
2562.8s
uh essentially it was like stuff that
2565.3s
was sort of already working internally
2567.2s
that people liked that we just thought
2569.2s
we were going to get some more signal on
2571.0s
by by releasing it. So I think forcing
2574.4s
ourselves to release it within that 10 days that we did, it was just sort of like whatever we had, let's put it out there and then let's go out there and iterate from there, which is what we're doing. and it blew up the internet when you launched it, so worked out. you launched it, so worked out. Yeah.
2576.1s
days that we did, it was just sort of
2577.8s
like whatever we had, let's put it out
2579.6s
there and then let's go out there and
2580.7s
iterate from there, which is what we're
2581.9s
doing. and it blew up the internet when
2583.5s
you launched it, so worked out.
2585.4s
you launched it, so worked out. Yeah.
2586.8s
Is there a feature of Co-work today that you're either most proud of or just like can't wait to fix and and improve? Honestly, I think we're I I'm just most proud of us actually just like shipping it to be honest. Um and putting it out there. And uh yeah, I don't know if there's like one
2588.8s
you're either most proud of or just like
2591.1s
can't wait to fix and and improve?
2593.6s
Honestly, I think we're I I'm just most
2595.2s
proud of us actually just like shipping
2596.9s
it to be honest. Um and putting it out
2599.0s
there. And uh
2602.4s
yeah, I don't know if there's like one
2604.0s
specific thing yet cuz like I think when when you work on something and you work on it so long, especially as a designer, you're like I don't know if I like, you know, I all I can do is see flaws in it. But I think there's a lot of stuff that
2605.8s
when you work on something and you work
2607.7s
on it so long, especially as a designer,
2609.8s
you're like I don't know if I like, you
2612.1s
know, I all I can do is see flaws in it.
2614.4s
But I think there's a lot of stuff that
2616.4s
I'm excited about. Like we have been uh iterating especially on the homepage and to make that something where it feels more like hey these are like tasks you can give Claude and and that tasks that Claude are working on. Um and so that actually should be rolling out. It might already be rolled out by the time this
2619.7s
iterating especially on the homepage and
2621.8s
to make that something where it feels
2624.9s
more like hey these are like tasks you
2627.9s
can give Claude and and that tasks that
2629.5s
Claude are working on. Um and so that
2631.2s
actually should be rolling out. It might
2632.6s
already be rolled out by the time this
2634.0s
already be rolled out by the time this this All right. So I see like this little randomizer thing where you click it and gives you all these different ideas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then so when you actually start to work with Claude on stuff, it feels more like a to-do list.
2634.5s
All right. So I see like this little
2635.8s
randomizer thing where you click it and
2637.2s
gives you all these different ideas.
2638.9s
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then so when you
2640.2s
actually start to work with Claude on
2641.8s
stuff, it feels more like a to-do list.
2644.0s
Like it feels more like these are things Claude's working on. Um these are things that Claude needs your attention on. And I think there's just a there's an opportunity here to make it feel much more like this like shared to-do list between you and Claude. So excited to iterate on that. And then I'm also
2645.4s
Claude's working on. Um these are things
2648.0s
that Claude needs your attention on. And
2649.8s
I think there's just a there's an
2651.8s
opportunity here to make it feel much
2653.4s
more like this like shared to-do list
2654.7s
between you and Claude. So excited to
2656.7s
iterate on that. And then I'm also
2659.0s
excited to think more about uh yeah like what is the actual true form factor of this? like is it stuck in the screen always or how does this sort of like reach out to the different surfaces that it's working with? I love that you shared that it wasn't just 10 days to do this thing. There's
2662.0s
what is the actual true form factor of
2663.8s
this? like is it stuck in the screen
2665.9s
always or how does this sort of like
2668.7s
reach out to the different surfaces that
2670.2s
it's working with?
2671.1s
I love that you shared that it wasn't
2673.0s
just 10 days to do this thing. There's
2674.6s
like these numbers that people throw out there. We build it in 10 days. And your point is like there was time spent thinking about what direction it should go and prototyping, mocking, trying stuff. And then it's like, okay, now we know what we want it to be. Let's build it and ship it.
2675.8s
there. We build it in 10 days. And your
2678.2s
point is like there was time spent
2679.8s
thinking about what direction it should
2681.5s
go and prototyping, mocking, trying
2684.2s
stuff. And then it's like, okay, now we
2686.0s
know what we want it to be. Let's build
2687.5s
it and ship it.
2688.3s
Yeah. I think for some reason that became like the viral thing that got taken away from all of the the sort of co-work announcements is that it only took 10 days. But I think there there have just been so many different have just been so many different explorations uh and people that have worked on
2689.7s
became like the viral thing that got
2691.9s
taken away from all of the the sort of
2694.4s
co-work announcements is that it only
2695.8s
took 10 days. But I think there there
2697.7s
have just been so many different
2699.0s
have just been so many different explorations
2700.6s
uh and people that have worked on
2702.0s
different pieces of co-work yeah it was it was not just 10 days and there was a lot of different people involved. It's it's one of those things where it's like the the idea kept coming back and it's like never the right moment or there's like different variations of it and then all of a
2705.4s
yeah it was it was not just 10 days and
2707.4s
there was a lot of different people
2708.6s
involved. It's it's one of those things
2710.6s
where it's like the the idea kept coming
2713.7s
back and it's like never the right
2715.4s
moment or there's like different
2716.4s
variations of it and then all of a
2718.4s
sudden it's the right moment and it feels like it was so obvious all along but there was a long long journey to get but there was a long long journey to get there. And by the way for people that don't know much about co work is like the way I think about it it's like clawed with
2719.8s
feels like it was so obvious all along
2722.3s
but there was a long long journey to get
2724.1s
but there was a long long journey to get there.
2724.5s
And by the way for people that don't
2725.5s
know much about co work is like the way
2727.0s
I think about it it's like clawed with
2728.5s
hands where you could do stuff on your hands where you could do stuff on your computer. Is that is what's how would you describe it just like in a sentence or two? That's a good description. I actually haven't heard that but I like that. I might use it more often as clawed with
2730.6s
hands where you could do stuff on your computer.
2731.4s
Is that is what's how would you describe
2733.0s
it just like in a sentence or two?
2734.3s
That's a good description. I actually
2735.3s
haven't heard that but I like that. I
2736.6s
might use it more often as clawed with
2738.2s
hands. I also think about it as like it's like Claude, but Claude is really good at taking all your garbage and then turning it into something nice. Like I think one of my favorite like any sort of use case that I I really like out of co-work is just like
2742.0s
it's like Claude, but Claude is really
2744.3s
good at taking all your garbage and then
2747.7s
turning it into something nice. Like I
2749.8s
think one of my favorite
2751.9s
like any sort of use case that I I
2754.1s
really like out of co-work is just like
2756.1s
giving it a folder of my stuff and it doesn't really matter what's in that folder but I'm able to extract something good out of it. I've done that many times. Okay, coming back to managing and being a manager and the role of a designer. I want talk about hiring for a little bit. So,
2759.0s
doesn't really matter what's in that
2760.4s
folder but I'm able to extract something
2762.6s
good out of it.
2764.3s
I've done that many times. Okay, coming
2767.2s
back to managing and being a manager and
2770.3s
the role of a designer. I want talk
2771.9s
about hiring for a little bit. So,
2773.8s
seeing how much is changing in the role of a designer, what do you look for that's maybe new? Like what do you now look for when you're hiring designers that you think is really important for them to be successful in this new world? Well, I do think working specifically in the envir kind of environment that I do
2776.2s
of a designer, what do you look for
2778.8s
that's maybe new? Like what do you now
2781.0s
look for when you're hiring designers
2783.1s
that you think is really important for
2784.5s
them to be successful in this new world?
2786.6s
Well, I do think working specifically in
2789.6s
the envir kind of environment that I do
2791.4s
there there's just like a sense of like resilience and like roll with it kind of thing. Um that I think is really important because yeah so much is changing around us and you have to be really willing to adapt to try out new methods to try out new tools and learn
2793.5s
resilience and like roll with it kind of
2795.9s
thing. Um that I think is really
2798.6s
important because yeah so much is
2800.8s
changing around us and you have to be
2802.6s
really willing to adapt to try out new
2805.0s
methods to try out new tools and learn
2807.4s
stuff as opposed to just like be stuck in the old processes and the old ways. Um, but then I think about also there's probably three archetypes of folks that are really interesting to me right now. Um, and I think these folks were already interesting to me before, but I feel like is in this era feels especially
2809.4s
in the old processes and the old ways.
2812.2s
Um, but then I think about also there's
2814.1s
probably three archetypes of folks that
2816.2s
are really interesting to me right now.
2818.1s
Um, and I think these folks were already
2819.9s
interesting to me before, but I feel
2821.4s
like is in this era feels especially
2824.4s
important. Um, so the first one I would call is like strong generalists. Um, so not just like regular generalists where they're like kind of good at a lot of things, but like people that are like almost like block shaped, you know, in that T-shaped framework where it's like they're really good at like a few core
2826.5s
call is like strong generalists. Um, so
2829.2s
not just like regular generalists where
2830.8s
they're like kind of good at a lot of
2833.1s
things, but like people that are like
2835.6s
almost like block shaped, you know, in
2837.0s
that T-shaped framework where it's like
2839.0s
they're really good at like a few core
2841.7s
skills, like 80th percentile good. I think this is like pretty rare and hard to hire for to be honest. But I like this because the design role we've already seen is kind of like is stretching and spanning, right? Like we're all becoming more PM shape. we're be all becoming engineering shaped. Um,
2844.2s
think this is like pretty rare and hard
2846.8s
to hire for to be honest. But I like
2849.3s
this because the design role we've
2852.6s
already seen is kind of like is
2854.2s
stretching and spanning, right? Like
2855.7s
we're all becoming more PM shape. we're
2858.0s
be all becoming engineering shaped. Um,
2860.0s
and so if you already have strong skills in a few different buckets, it's really easy for you to sort of like flex around and expand your expand your role. So that's really exciting to me. It's just somebody who is really good at a bunch of things. Again, a huge ask. Um, and then the other person that's really
2862.2s
in a few different buckets, it's really
2863.7s
easy for you to sort of like flex around
2866.6s
and expand your expand your role. So
2869.7s
that's really exciting to me. It's just
2871.1s
somebody who is really good at a bunch
2873.3s
of things. Again, a huge ask. Um, and
2876.6s
then the other person that's really
2878.5s
exciting to me is in that T-shaped framework, like a a deep specialist, like someone who's is T-shaped, but like the the the tip of the tea probably is like goes down farther than most other people. So, folks that are maybe like the top, you know, like 10 in the industry and whatnot. again, super hard
2880.5s
framework, like a a deep specialist,
2882.4s
like someone who's is T-shaped, but like
2884.5s
the the the tip of the tea probably is
2886.6s
like goes down farther than most other
2889.3s
people. So, folks that are maybe like
2891.4s
the top, you know, like 10 in the
2893.2s
industry and whatnot. again, super hard
2895.4s
to find. And I feel very lucky that like, you know, working at at some of these places, like folks like these, you you can sort of afford to hire them and and and actually bring them on board. Um, and then my last one is probably the one that I think we're all overlooking,
2897.8s
like, you know, working at at some of
2900.7s
these places, like folks like these, you
2903.4s
you can sort of afford to hire them and
2905.0s
and and actually bring them on board.
2907.3s
Um, and then my last one is probably the
2910.2s
one that I think we're all overlooking,
2911.7s
which is what I call the craft newrad. Um, it's just somebody who is like early career and uh feels kind of like wise and experienced beyond their years, but is also just like very humble and and and very eager to learn. I think this person is really interesting right now person is really interesting right now because
2914.4s
Um, it's just somebody who is like early
2917.3s
career and uh feels kind of like wise
2922.7s
and experienced beyond their years, but
2924.4s
is also just like very humble and and
2927.2s
and very eager to learn. I think this
2930.0s
person is really interesting right now
2931.4s
person is really interesting right now because
2933.6s
I think most companies are just hiring like senior talent, like folks that have done things before, are super experienced, but given how much the roles are changing and what we're expected to do is changing, snorts I think having somebody who almost has like a blank slate and is just like a really quick learner and is really eager
2935.5s
like senior talent, like folks that have
2937.6s
done things before, are super
2939.8s
experienced, but given how much the
2941.8s
roles are changing and what we're
2943.3s
expected to do is changing, snorts I
2945.4s
think having somebody who almost has
2946.6s
like a blank slate and is just like a
2948.4s
really quick learner and is really eager
2949.8s
to learn um new tactics and stuff like that and doesn't have like all these baked in processes and rituals in their mind, that's super valuable. Um, so I think those are the folks that I think a lot of us are just like overlooking, but I'm like really excited about. This is awesome. Uh, on the deep tea
2951.9s
that and doesn't have like all these
2953.4s
baked in processes and rituals in their
2956.0s
mind, that's super valuable. Um, so I
2958.7s
think those are the folks that I think a
2960.6s
lot of us are just like overlooking, but
2962.2s
I'm like really excited about.
2964.1s
This is awesome. Uh, on the deep tea
2967.4s
shape, what's an example of someone in design that has a like what's what's a skill that they're really good at? Sometimes there's designers who are just like really technical in a way where they could be like 50 of soft they're they're basically a software engineer. That's really interesting especially
2970.3s
design that has a like what's what's a
2972.0s
skill that they're really good at?
2973.3s
Sometimes there's designers who are just
2974.6s
like really technical in a way where
2976.6s
they could be like 50 of soft they're
2978.2s
they're basically a software engineer.
2980.0s
That's really interesting especially
2981.4s
because right now like a lot of it is at least for us it's like you know you're working with directly with the model so it can it helps when you have just like deep engineering expertise. Um, but another like deep kind of like specialist T is just, you know, maybe they're just really good at like visual
2984.2s
least for us it's like you know you're
2985.5s
working with directly with the model so
2986.9s
it can it helps when you have just like
2988.6s
deep engineering expertise. Um, but
2990.9s
another like deep kind of like
2992.6s
specialist T is just, you know, maybe
2995.0s
they're just really good at like visual
2996.5s
design or or just like designing icons or something where things like that given that everybody can anybody can make anything, you know, having that deep specialist slant feels like, oh yeah, they can really help differentiate the things that we're building. Awesome. Okay. And then this block shape, we had Mark Andrees on the
2998.4s
or something where things like that
3000.6s
given that everybody can anybody can
3003.3s
make anything, you know, having that
3005.2s
deep specialist slant feels like, oh
3007.9s
yeah, they can really help differentiate
3009.6s
the things that we're building.
3011.0s
Awesome. Okay. And then this block
3012.7s
shape, we had Mark Andrees on the
3014.4s
podcast. We kind of called it the F Fshape or E shape where there's like multiple T thing. Sideways F, sideways E, I guess. Is that what you're describing where there's like many things you're really really good at? Yeah. Yeah. And like basically like I don't know if you almost had their skill
3016.0s
Fshape or E shape where there's like
3017.6s
multiple T thing. Sideways F, sideways
3020.1s
E, I guess. Is that what you're
3021.4s
describing where there's like many
3022.6s
things you're really really good at?
3024.2s
Yeah. Yeah. And like basically like I
3026.3s
don't know if you almost had their skill
3027.7s
set, it would it would look like a block, you know, like there's so many skills that like the tea is spread out. Okay. Okay. And the correct new grad. So this is just like someone that is uh eager like uh open-minded, gritty, very smart, I imagine, is a big part of it.
3028.9s
block, you know, like
3030.3s
there's so many skills that like the tea
3031.9s
is spread out. Okay.
3033.5s
Okay. And the correct new grad. So this
3035.0s
is just like someone that is uh eager
3037.6s
like uh open-minded, gritty, very smart,
3041.3s
I imagine, is a big part of it.
3043.0s
I imagine, is a big part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. If someone's like a new design, like a young designer trying to break in, trying to be successful, what would your advice be to them to help them have a shot at at ends up joining Anthropic, for example?
3043.4s
Yeah. Awesome.
3043.8s
Yeah. Yeah.
3045.3s
If someone's like a new design, like a
3047.0s
young designer trying to break in,
3049.2s
trying to be successful, what would your
3051.3s
advice be to them to help them have a
3053.4s
shot at at ends up joining Anthropic,
3055.5s
for example?
3056.2s
I would just say just like build a bunch of stuff like try a bunch of stuff out, build build actual things. I I think that is that can feel I don't really know what the state of like design education or education is these days but at least from like back when I was in
3057.8s
of stuff like try a bunch of stuff out,
3060.2s
build build actual things. I I think
3062.9s
that is that can feel I don't really
3066.1s
know what the state of like design
3067.6s
education or education is these days but
3070.3s
at least from like back when I was in
3071.9s
school like everything was very like theoretical and like here we're going to teach you some approaches and whatnot but like the best the best kind of like crack new grad folks I know are just like people who just like use the technology build actual things don't feel like limited by you know how little
3074.9s
theoretical and like here we're going to
3077.0s
teach you some approaches and whatnot
3078.8s
but like the best the best kind of like
3081.5s
crack new grad folks I know are just
3083.3s
like people who just like use the
3085.0s
technology build actual things don't
3088.9s
feel like limited by you know how little
3092.1s
experience they might have. I think that sometimes they're actually unburdened by that cuz like we have expectations of ourselves after being in industry for so long, but they actually don't and they sort of feel like anything is possible. And so just like building a bunch of stuff and and sharing it with people and
3094.2s
sometimes they're actually unburdened by
3095.5s
that cuz like we have expectations of
3097.6s
ourselves after being in industry for so
3099.4s
long, but they actually don't and they
3101.8s
sort of feel like anything is possible.
3103.6s
And so just like building a bunch of
3105.4s
stuff and and sharing it with people and
3107.2s
finding a community of folks that uh that also do that. Um yeah, I think my my one call here too is like I went to a school that started something called Socratica like much a few years after actually a while after I graduated and basically their whole thing is like building stuff and showcasing it almost
3109.0s
that also do that. Um yeah, I think my
3111.4s
my one call here too is like I went to a
3114.6s
school that started something called
3116.4s
Socratica like much a few years after
3119.9s
actually a while after I graduated and
3121.9s
basically their whole thing is like
3123.8s
building stuff and showcasing it almost
3125.5s
like a science project and I think there's just been a really cool movement there of folks who just like build things and do things. Like for example, somebody built this like claude robot project. This was like a few years ago too where they were uh just assembling robots that were running on Claude and
3128.1s
there's just been a really cool movement
3130.7s
there of folks who just like build
3133.4s
things and do things. Like for example,
3135.2s
somebody built this like claude robot
3138.7s
project. This was like a few years ago
3140.2s
too where they were uh just assembling
3142.8s
robots that were running on Claude and
3145.4s
then somebody else did something where she just wanted to put googly eyes on a bus in Boston or something and there's just like a sense of of both like agency in terms of like yeah we can just do stuff but then also this community where people were just trying and building things and sharing things with each
3146.7s
she just wanted to put googly eyes on a
3148.3s
bus in Boston or something and there's
3151.2s
just like a sense of of both like agency
3153.3s
in terms of like yeah we can just do
3155.0s
stuff but then also this community where
3157.1s
people were just trying and building
3158.6s
things and sharing things with each
3159.8s
other. So whatever that looks like given that, you know, the school that someone's from or graduating from, yeah, doing that kind of stuff is is is the stuff that will make people stand out. For current designers that are make career awesomely senior, do you think you need to get technical and learn to
3163.4s
that, you know, the school that
3164.6s
someone's from or graduating from, yeah,
3167.0s
doing that kind of stuff is is is the
3169.3s
stuff that will make people stand out.
3171.1s
For current designers that are make
3174.2s
career awesomely senior, do you think
3176.9s
you need to get technical and learn to
3179.4s
code, at least build, or do you think you could be really successful and just not lean into that and get better at other stuff? I think it definitely helps to maybe not like learn how to code so much that that uh you know you're building something from scratch but I it
3181.5s
you could be really successful and just
3183.2s
not lean into that and get better at
3184.6s
other stuff? I think it definitely helps
3187.1s
to maybe not like learn how to code so
3190.8s
much that that uh you know you're
3193.0s
building something from scratch but I it
3194.9s
does feel like more and more of the designer vocabulary right now is implementing some stuff. I wonder though as you know the the models both the models and the products get better if models and the products get better if like we I mean we probably will continue to like move up the abstraction layer and
3196.1s
designer vocabulary right now is
3198.0s
implementing some stuff. I wonder though
3200.6s
as you know the the models both the
3203.1s
models and the products get better if
3205.0s
models and the products get better if like
3206.6s
we I mean we probably will continue to
3208.2s
like move up the abstraction layer and
3210.0s
layers and you won't have to actually know how you know each single line of code will work but I think what I would say is like start to bring that into your like toolkit the coding tools whether or not it's like you're actually becoming technical I think any designer should just be really aware and like
3211.4s
know how you know each single line of
3214.2s
code will work but I think what I would
3216.1s
say is like start to bring that into
3218.2s
your like toolkit the coding tools
3220.3s
whether or not it's like you're actually
3221.5s
becoming technical I think any designer
3223.9s
should just be really aware and like
3226.6s
know how to use the tools that are at and as opposed to maybe like learning and like going off and you know learning react or or etc etc. How good of a designer is Claude would you say or Claude code what however you want to like would you hire Claude as a
3228.6s
and as opposed to maybe like learning
3230.6s
and like going off and you know learning
3232.1s
react or or etc etc.
3233.9s
How good of a designer is Claude would
3236.1s
you say or Claude code what however you
3237.6s
want to like would you hire Claude as a
3240.2s
designer or is like not there yet? I don't think Claude is there yet. I don't think Claude is there yet in terms of a designer you would hire. I think it is it is not yet the strong generalist or the deep specialist or the crack new. I think it's it's pretty good at a first
3241.6s
I don't think Claude is there yet. I
3243.0s
don't think Claude is there yet in terms
3244.2s
of a designer you would hire. I think it
3246.0s
is it is not yet the strong generalist
3248.8s
or the deep specialist or the crack new.
3252.0s
I think it's it's pretty good at a first
3253.9s
pass and at presenting a bunch of different ideas to you, but uh nothing there quite feels like yeah special and hirable yet, which is good news for designers for now laughter that it sucks at this for now. And I'm so curious to see how good it could get at this. That's like such a big open question is
3256.1s
different ideas to you, but uh nothing
3259.1s
there quite feels like yeah special and
3261.6s
hirable yet,
3262.6s
which is good news for designers for now
3264.6s
laughter that it sucks at this for
3265.7s
now. And I'm so curious to see how good
3267.8s
it could get at this. That's like such a
3269.2s
big open question is
3270.8s
can it pump out amazing novel unique creative experiences or is this just never going to be that good as a as a human designer? I mean, it's gotten a lot better in the last year or so even. So, yeah. There's a couple management uh I don't know, rituals or takes you have that
3273.8s
creative experiences or is this just
3276.3s
never going to be that good as a as a
3278.0s
human designer? I mean, it's gotten a
3279.8s
lot better in the last year or so even.
3282.5s
So, yeah.
3283.5s
There's a couple management uh I don't
3286.0s
know, rituals or takes you have that
3288.2s
I've heard from folks that you work with that I want to touch on. One is that you have this hot take that low leverage time for a manager is is just not a thing that there's a lot of benefit you can get out of things that people consider low leverage. Can you talk about that?
3289.7s
that I want to touch on. One is that you
3292.3s
have this hot take that low leverage
3294.1s
time for a manager is is just not a
3296.4s
thing that there's a lot of benefit you
3298.7s
can get out of things that people
3299.8s
consider low leverage. Can you talk
3301.7s
about that?
3302.6s
Yeah. Um yeah, I remember like first becoming a manager and I think one of the pieces like of advice that I either got from a course or a book or something is like yeah now that you're a manager you have to uh like really prioritize your time and categorize your work and
3305.0s
becoming a manager and I think one of
3309.1s
the pieces like of advice that I either
3311.0s
got from a course or a book or something
3313.2s
is like yeah now that you're a manager
3315.2s
you have to uh like really prioritize
3318.1s
your time and categorize your work and
3319.7s
there was like this 2 by two of like I I don't remember what it was in it but you essentially say like oh these are the things that only I can do these are the things anybody else can do and everything else you know like it's low leverage and you shouldn't do that
3322.0s
don't remember what it was in it but you
3323.2s
essentially say like oh these are the
3324.3s
things that only I can do these are the
3325.8s
things anybody else can do and
3328.3s
everything else you know like it's low
3330.1s
leverage and you shouldn't do that
3331.2s
anymore and a lot of the lowle leverage things were just like, you know, like things that are really nitpicky in the weeds or just like literally yes, probably somebody else could do those tasks. But when I think about like leaders and managers that I have respect the most, um I actually think some of
3332.9s
things were just like, you know, like
3335.4s
things that are really nitpicky in the
3337.0s
weeds or just like literally yes,
3339.0s
probably somebody else could do those
3340.7s
tasks. But when I think about like
3343.1s
leaders and managers that I have respect
3345.6s
the most, um I actually think some of
3348.5s
the their best traits is that they choose like lowlever tasks that they take on themselves and that actually ends up being actually a very high lever thing because it's them who's doing it. Um, so one example is, uh, whenever you have like senior leaders who just like test the out of the product and
3350.9s
choose like lowlever tasks that they
3353.3s
take on themselves and that actually
3355.3s
ends up being actually a very high lever
3357.6s
thing because it's them who's doing it.
3360.2s
Um, so one example is, uh, whenever you
3363.0s
have like senior leaders who just like
3365.0s
test the out of the product and
3366.9s
they're just like so in tune with it. Um, and they dog food it, they repro the bugs, they spend a bunch of time with like engineers like sharing the logs and like nitpicking and stuff like that. Um, and I think that ends up being like super actually high leverage even though
3368.9s
Um, and they dog food it, they repro the
3370.6s
bugs, they spend a bunch of time with
3372.4s
like engineers like sharing the logs and
3374.5s
like nitpicking and stuff like that. Um,
3376.6s
and I think that ends up being like
3378.2s
super actually high leverage even though
3380.0s
it's a lot of time of like nitty-gritty time because it creates this like familiarity with the product which I think is really good. Uh it also creates this vibe where it's like, oh yeah, the this senior leader really cares deeply and they actually know the ins and out of the product and they're rolling up
3381.9s
time because it creates this like
3385.5s
familiarity with the product which I
3387.0s
think is really good. Uh it also creates
3389.1s
this vibe where it's like, oh yeah, the
3391.2s
this senior leader really cares deeply
3393.0s
and they actually know the ins and out
3394.4s
of the product and they're rolling up
3395.9s
their sleeves and they're giving this feedback and working with the team on it. Um and I think similarly too what I've seen is like when a senior leader is able to like fix a bug now, you know, even like I think I've actually seen like Mike Kger before like put put in
3397.4s
feedback and working with the team on
3398.8s
it. Um and I think similarly too what
3402.0s
I've seen is like when a senior leader
3404.4s
is able to like fix a bug now, you know,
3407.5s
even like I think I've actually seen
3409.0s
like Mike Kger before like put put in
3411.4s
PRs himself. Um, and it's it's it's really nice cuz it's like, okay, cool. Like, we're all on this team together and nothing is like below this person. Um, and I think simil another thing that I love that's a little bit more cultural is when somebody like goes out of the way to like make somebody's like
3415.0s
really nice cuz it's like, okay, cool.
3416.2s
Like, we're all on this team together
3417.4s
and nothing is like below this person.
3419.8s
Um, and I think simil another thing that
3421.5s
I love that's a little bit more cultural
3423.1s
is when somebody like goes out of the
3426.2s
way to like make somebody's like
3427.8s
anniversary card or something. um and like vibe code them super something super nice or make them something a super nice card because I think it just shows that yeah it's like an EA or somebody can put together the card but this later is just somebody who cares so much about their team that they put in
3430.2s
like vibe code them super something
3431.8s
super nice or make them something a
3433.5s
super nice card because I think it just
3435.0s
shows that yeah it's like an EA or
3437.2s
somebody can put together the card but
3439.2s
this later is just somebody who cares so
3441.6s
much about their team that they put in
3442.9s
the effort. So that's something I try to embody is like choosing the like the the seemingly lowlever tasks that are like worth my time. Yeah, that is so interesting. Like what you're saying there is in a sense like the low leverage stuff is the one is the stuff that often has the most impact
3444.7s
embody is like choosing the like the the
3447.7s
seemingly lowlever tasks that are like
3451.2s
worth my time.
3452.7s
Yeah, that is so interesting. Like what
3454.3s
you're saying there is in a sense like
3456.0s
the low leverage stuff is the one is the
3457.9s
stuff that often has the most impact
3460.1s
because your reports wouldn't expect you to spend time on this thing and there's a like the low leverage ends up being high leverage. Yeah. And I think it's what makes like your style of leadership stand out or feel special to a certain person. Amazing. Another uh I don't know ritual
3462.6s
to spend time on this thing and there's
3464.3s
a like the low leverage ends up being
3466.2s
high leverage.
3467.0s
Yeah. And I think it's what makes like
3469.3s
your style of leadership stand out or
3471.2s
feel special to a certain person.
3473.0s
Amazing. Another uh I don't know ritual
3475.6s
and kind of way of running teams that I heard about you is uh you encourage uh team members roasting each other which on the surface doesn't sound like a wonderful environment but uh on the other hand I hear constantly that the teams that you've built are just the happiest the highest performing teams.
3477.4s
heard about you is uh you encourage uh
3480.3s
team members roasting each other which
3483.3s
on the surface doesn't sound like a
3484.7s
wonderful environment but uh on the
3487.3s
other hand I hear constantly that the
3488.8s
teams that you've built are just the
3490.6s
happiest the highest performing teams.
3493.3s
Talk about I guess this idea of roasting and encouraging that and just what you've learned about building awesome teams. Yeah, I think it's not that I'm like, Yo, you should roast each other, you know, like I'm not like forcing it in that way or anything. Um, but when I think about the sort of psychological
3495.2s
and encouraging that and just what
3496.6s
you've learned about building awesome
3497.9s
teams. Yeah, I think it's not that I'm
3500.0s
like, Yo, you should roast each other,
3501.5s
you know, like I'm not like forcing it
3503.3s
in that way or anything. Um, but when I
3505.9s
think about the sort of psychological
3509.0s
safety and teams and like people that just get along with each other, like when you think about your friends, you know, you're you're always sort of willing to like push the boundaries a little bit and like roast them. Like you're roasting your friends a lot, but you actually might not be roasting your
3511.8s
just get along with each other, like
3513.3s
when you think about your friends, you
3514.5s
know, you're you're always sort of
3515.4s
willing to like push the boundaries a
3517.0s
little bit and like roast them. Like
3518.4s
you're roasting your friends a lot, but
3519.8s
you actually might not be roasting your
3521.0s
co-workers a lot because you it's it's all just about like comfort and and safety, right? So, it's not that I'm like, Oh, I want my teams to roast each other. But I think it can be a really good sign when uh the people on your team kind of feel comfortable just like
3523.4s
all just about like comfort and and
3525.0s
safety, right? So, it's not that I'm
3526.9s
like, Oh, I want my teams to roast each
3528.8s
other. But I think it can be a really
3530.6s
good sign when uh the people on your
3533.4s
team kind of feel comfortable just like
3535.8s
kind of poking fun at each other a little bit. Um, and I think that also can be a good sign when folks also feel the same way about like you as a leader where it's like there's just an element of like they don't they don't fear you as much, but they and they feel like
3537.4s
little bit. Um, and I think that also
3539.4s
can be a good sign when folks also feel
3541.6s
the same way about like you as a leader
3544.7s
where it's like there's just an element
3547.3s
of like they don't they don't fear you
3548.8s
as much, but they and they feel like
3550.3s
there's a sense of safety where if they say something, they're not going to get fired. Um, so an example of this is like with my last team, I feel like they would make fun of things that I would say at crits sometimes, like certain phrases I would say. What's an example of that?
3552.0s
say something, they're not going to get
3553.5s
fired. Um, so an example of this is like
3556.7s
with my last team, I feel like they
3559.0s
would make fun of things that I would
3560.2s
say at crits sometimes, like certain
3562.1s
phrases I would say.
3563.4s
What's an example of that?
3565.0s
I don't like I Oh, I would always be like, Okay, like what are next steps? And like, How do we follow up on this? And then they'd be like, Okay, like what are next steps? Um, and they would sort of channel me in that way. Yeah. I just think it shows a level of like,
3567.0s
like, Okay, like what are next steps?
3569.1s
And like, How do we follow up on this?
3570.6s
And then they'd be like, Okay, like
3571.8s
what are next steps? Um, and they would
3574.5s
sort of channel me in that way. Yeah. I
3576.8s
just think it shows a level of like,
3578.2s
Okay, these people are like not necessarily afraid of me. they know that they trust me. They can they can trust me. Um, and it's it's and then they sort of like know enough about each other and me like personally in our personal lives to be able to like know sort of where
3581.2s
necessarily afraid of me. they know that
3583.3s
they trust me. They can they can trust
3584.9s
me. Um, and it's it's and then they sort
3589.0s
of like know enough about each other and
3591.4s
me like personally in our personal lives
3593.7s
to be able to like know sort of where
3595.5s
those boundaries are. Um, but at the same time, I think the the the thing that you sort of air into in that territory is like are you as your as a manager, are you friends with your reports, which is I think the thing people tell you like not to do. And so
3597.4s
same time, I think the the the thing
3599.9s
that you sort of air into in that
3601.6s
territory is like are you as your as a
3603.9s
manager, are you friends with your
3605.2s
reports, which is I think the thing
3606.5s
people tell you like not to do. And so
3609.4s
the way I think about balancing this out is like this creates like the you have to create this sort of like uh baseline of psychological safety and people feel comfortable both with each other and with you, but you also have to make sure that you they know that you have really high standards. Um, and I think these
3611.0s
is like this creates like the you have
3613.8s
to create this sort of like uh baseline
3616.4s
of psychological safety and people feel
3618.2s
comfortable both with each other and
3619.9s
with you, but you also have to make sure
3621.8s
that you they know that you have really
3623.6s
high standards. Um, and I think these
3625.8s
two things can feel like they're at tension, but I think they're actually they work really well together because it's like once you have that psychological safety, you have people trusting each other and you applying the high standards actually I think becomes potentially easier because you can do it without fear. I think um and I sort of
3627.1s
tension, but I think they're actually
3629.6s
they work really well together because
3631.0s
it's like once you have that
3631.9s
psychological safety, you have people
3633.4s
trusting each other and you applying the
3637.0s
high standards actually I think becomes
3640.2s
potentially easier because you can do it
3642.4s
without fear. I think um and I sort of
3645.0s
think about this from the approach of like kind of like being a tough parent a little bit, you know? It's like, oh yeah, like they my team, I work with them in a way where they know I'm always going to be there. Um, and I'm not just going to fire them on a whim or
3646.3s
like kind of like being a tough parent a
3648.6s
little bit, you know? It's like, oh
3650.3s
yeah, like they my team, I work with
3653.3s
them in a way where they know I'm always
3654.8s
going to be there. Um, and I'm not just
3658.2s
going to fire them on a whim or
3659.4s
something, but at the same time, they also know that I want the best for them, you know, and that I have high standards and that, you know, I I'm working with them to to make the best work possible. And so yeah, that's the balance I need to strike is like can you create this
3661.2s
also know that I want the best for them,
3663.0s
you know, and that I have high standards
3665.0s
and that, you know, I I'm working with
3668.2s
them to to make the best work possible.
3670.7s
And so yeah, that's the balance I need
3672.7s
to strike is like can you create this
3674.1s
environment of one where your team feels comfortable roasting you but at the same time like they know they have to be doing great work and they and they will do great work with you. That is awesome advice. It's interesting how often this this uh just like management style comes back or management uh good management it comes
3677.1s
comfortable roasting you but at the same
3679.1s
time like they know they have to be
3681.3s
doing great work and they and they will
3683.0s
do great work with you.
3684.1s
That is awesome advice. It's interesting
3686.3s
how often this this uh just like
3689.0s
management style comes back or
3690.9s
management uh good management it comes
3693.0s
back reminds me of what was it candid radical cander just this combination of caring deeply and challenging directly. caring deeply and challenging directly. Yeah. And that's kind of what I hear here is just make sure people know that you care deeply about them, but also be very direct and have high standards. Yeah. Yeah.
3695.4s
radical cander just this combination of
3697.7s
caring deeply and challenging directly.
3700.2s
caring deeply and challenging directly. Yeah.
3700.6s
And that's kind of what I hear here is
3702.1s
just make sure people know that you care
3703.8s
deeply about them, but also be very
3705.4s
direct and have high standards.
3707.4s
Yeah. Yeah.
3708.6s
So interesting. Okay. Maybe a final question. I'm always looking for interesting frameworks and methods and processes that people have found useful in their work and I hear you're a big fan of something called the legibility fan of something called the legibility framework. Talk about this. Talk about how you use it, why it's so valuable. Yeah, this
3710.6s
question. I'm always looking for
3712.2s
interesting frameworks and methods and
3713.9s
processes that people have found useful
3716.0s
in their work and I hear you're a big
3717.8s
fan of something called the legibility
3719.4s
fan of something called the legibility framework.
3720.7s
Talk about this. Talk about how you use
3722.1s
it, why it's so valuable. Yeah, this
3724.5s
framework I think I saw it on Twitter maybe last year or something and it was Evan Tana who is a partner at SPC uh he's a BC so it it basically is this like 2 by 2 I don't think it like got so much attention but I once I started seeing it I like actually couldn't stop
3728.0s
maybe last year or something and it was
3731.0s
Evan Tana who is a partner at SPC uh
3733.8s
he's a BC so it it basically is this
3736.5s
like 2 by 2 I don't think it like got so
3739.2s
much attention but I once I started
3740.9s
seeing it I like actually couldn't stop
3742.4s
thinking about it so um on the 2 by 2 PBS has like founders like founders can be either illeible or legible and then ideas can either be illegible or legible. Um, and basically he was saying that like, okay, if if both the founder and idea is like super legible, the idea is probably not that novel and
3745.0s
PBS has like founders like founders can
3748.1s
be either illeible or legible and then
3751.0s
ideas can either be illegible or
3753.3s
legible. Um, and basically he was saying
3755.8s
that like, okay, if if both the founder
3758.2s
and idea is like super legible, the idea
3760.8s
is probably not that novel and
3762.1s
somebody's already like they're already going to implement it or or or do it and you're actually not finding something new. Um, but then where it gets really interesting is where like the idea itself is illegible. And by illegible he means like oh it's sort of like really you know on the frontier people might
3763.7s
going to implement it or or or do it and
3765.8s
you're actually not finding something
3767.1s
new. Um, but then where it gets really
3769.3s
interesting is where like the idea
3770.6s
itself is illegible. And by illegible he
3773.3s
means like oh it's sort of like really
3776.1s
you know on the frontier people might
3777.8s
not get it yet or like the way it's being told it just doesn't it's not like being told in the in the in the way that makes the most sense to people and I think this is obviously a good way for a VC to operate because you're trying to look for the opportunities that people
3780.0s
being told it just doesn't it's not like
3782.5s
being told in the in the in the way that
3784.6s
makes the most sense to people and I
3787.0s
think this is obviously a good way for a
3789.0s
VC to operate because you're trying to
3791.0s
look for the opportunities that people
3792.3s
don't see and put them out there in the world but I also think that like part of the role of the designer at least um at least at at a at a frontier lab at anthrop topic is kind of spotting the ideas that are illeible and trying to understand what's there and how to take
3794.6s
world but I also think that like part of
3796.4s
the role of the designer at least um at
3799.5s
least at at a at a frontier lab at
3801.4s
anthrop topic is kind of spotting the
3804.1s
ideas that are illeible and trying to
3806.2s
understand what's there and how to take
3808.4s
that and like transform it whether it's through storytelling or whether it's through like the actual UX and the form factor and and and and put it out there. Um and I think there's like like when I mentioned you know going through Slack and like looking at all the stuff that people are making like that's kind of
3811.6s
through storytelling or whether it's
3813.2s
through like the actual UX and the form
3815.0s
factor and and and and put it out there.
3817.8s
Um and I think there's like like when I
3820.7s
mentioned you know going through Slack
3822.3s
and like looking at all the stuff that
3823.6s
people are making like that's kind of
3824.8s
what I'm doing. I'm trying to see like, oh yeah, what are the ideas that are really that like there's like some energy there around but like might not make sense yet that that are worth me like thinking about more in my work. There's there's one good example actually that like ties to co-work uh
3826.3s
oh yeah, what are the ideas that are
3828.3s
really that like there's like some
3830.7s
energy there around but like might not
3833.3s
make sense yet that that are worth me
3835.3s
like thinking about more in my work.
3837.9s
There's there's one good example
3839.3s
actually that like ties to co-work uh
3842.4s
where there was this internal prototype that we've called like cloud studio that I think somebody built like partway through last year. Um, and it essentially was just this like really kind of like dense powerful interface that was built on top of some agentic harness. I I it might have been Claude
3845.0s
that we've called like cloud studio that
3847.3s
I think somebody built
3849.6s
like partway through last year. Um, and
3851.9s
it essentially was just this like really
3854.4s
kind of like dense powerful interface
3857.0s
that was built on top of some agentic
3859.9s
harness. I I it might have been Claude
3861.5s
code at that point in time too. And it had all these like displays where showing you like all this knowledge and all these skills and and things Claude was doing and like previewing it outputs. Um, and I think to a designer I looked at it and I was like this is like
3863.5s
had all these like displays where
3865.4s
showing you like all this knowledge and
3866.6s
all these skills and and things Claude
3868.7s
was doing and like previewing it
3870.3s
outputs. Um, and I think to a designer I
3874.0s
looked at it and I was like this is like
3875.4s
I don't know what's going on. I don't really get it. Um, but then I sort of saw the folks in research, the folks building it and and just folks internally, there's just a lot of energy around it and I was like, cool. Like I think there's like something here, but I just don't understand it yet. And I
3877.1s
really get it. Um, but then I sort of
3879.3s
saw the folks in research, the folks
3882.1s
building it and and just folks
3883.3s
internally, there's just a lot of energy
3884.9s
around it and I was like, cool. Like I
3886.9s
think there's like something here, but I
3888.9s
just don't understand it yet. And I
3890.9s
think that really was an example of an anil illeible idea. And ultimately what came from it was like the skills framework um and and and uh like the sort of like markdown files that sort of that instruct Claude on how to do something. So that came out of that specific prototype that was not
3893.7s
anil illeible idea. And ultimately what
3897.3s
came from it was like the skills
3899.5s
framework um and and and uh like the
3902.6s
sort of like markdown files that sort of
3904.4s
that instruct Claude on how to do
3905.9s
something. So that came out of that
3907.4s
specific prototype that was not
3909.1s
something I was directly involved in and that was more of like you know the folks working on this prototype extracted that out of it. But when it did come to working on Claude co-work and I was thinking about like oh yeah what is the form factor for those things seeing that prototype and seeing the kinds of
3910.7s
that was more of like you know the folks
3912.9s
working on this prototype extracted that
3914.4s
out of it. But when it did come to
3916.3s
working on Claude co-work and I was
3917.8s
thinking about like oh yeah what is the
3919.8s
form factor for those things seeing that
3921.8s
prototype and seeing the kinds of
3923.7s
information that people found really helpful like seeing Claude's um plan and to-dos um seeing Claude's like context and the files that it was it was going through like those kinds of things are things that I ended up pulling out of that prototype into cloud co-work so yeah I think about like how can
3925.0s
helpful like seeing Claude's um plan and
3927.5s
to-dos um seeing Claude's like context
3930.9s
and the files that it was it was going
3932.6s
through like those kinds of things are
3934.6s
things that I ended up pulling out of
3935.8s
that prototype into cloud co-work so
3938.5s
yeah I think about like how can
3940.8s
designers almost be more like VCs in this way internally only when we're looking at prototypes. This is super interesting. I did a research project recently where uh with this guy Terrence Rohan VC actually we looked at what are patterns across people that have joined companies very early that ended up being massive successes like Palanteer and Stripe and
3943.7s
this way internally only when we're
3945.1s
looking at prototypes.
3946.6s
This is super interesting. I did a
3948.7s
research project recently where uh with
3950.8s
this guy Terrence Rohan VC actually we
3953.2s
looked at what are patterns across
3956.0s
people that have joined companies very
3957.8s
early that ended up being massive
3959.7s
successes like Palanteer and Stripe and
3962.5s
um linear and notion all these companies like people that have joined many of these companies early what were they looking for and one of the factors was the idea so is like so crazy that everyone's laughing at this this is this is impossible you're never going to do This this is the craziest thing. Why
3964.5s
like people that have joined many of
3966.1s
these companies early what were they
3967.4s
looking for and one of the factors was
3970.6s
the idea so is like so crazy that
3973.2s
everyone's laughing at this this is this
3975.9s
is impossible you're never going to do
3977.5s
This this is the craziest thing. Why
3979.1s
would you even think like pal like all the like openi actually was one of them just like some research lab doing some stuff. So so it's interesting that and it's not like every time this will work and it's not like every crazy idea that sounds makes no sense will be good but I
3981.0s
the like openi actually was one of them
3982.6s
just like some research lab doing some
3984.3s
stuff. So so it's interesting that and
3986.8s
it's not like every time this will work
3988.5s
and it's not like every crazy idea that
3990.3s
sounds makes no sense will be good but I
3993.5s
think what you're saying is pay attention to stuff that's like interesting to you and isn't totally clear. Maybe you can be the person that helps pull it together. Yeah. Yeah. that but also like if there is some energy around it but I don't quite always understand what the energy is to like dive deeper and try to
3994.8s
attention to stuff that's like
3996.0s
interesting to you and isn't totally
3997.8s
clear. Maybe you can be the person that
3999.8s
helps pull it together.
4001.3s
Yeah. Yeah. that but also like if there
4003.5s
is some energy around it but I don't
4006.6s
quite always understand what the energy
4008.6s
is to like dive deeper and try to
4011.2s
understand what that is. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I think people who often gravitate towards these early ideas they can't always articulate why and it's sort of up to you to like dive deeper and understand that. That's one of that was so there's three patterns we found. One of the other ones was there's just pay attention to people
4013.4s
I think people who often gravitate
4015.1s
towards these early ideas they can't
4017.2s
always articulate why
4019.3s
and it's sort of up to you to like dive
4020.9s
deeper and understand that.
4022.4s
That's one of that was so there's three
4024.1s
patterns we found. One of the other ones
4025.6s
was there's just pay attention to people
4028.0s
getting very excited about this thing even if you don't get it. Mh. And it's like sounds crazy. That's so interesting. Okay. And then what was the other one? Oh, the founders are just like top 1 was the other piece there, which everyone had anthropic radius. So, you got that one. Oh, man. Jenny, what a crazy time we're
4029.5s
even if you don't get it.
4030.9s
Mh. And it's like sounds crazy. That's
4033.4s
so interesting. Okay. And then what was
4035.0s
the other one? Oh, the founders are just
4037.3s
like top 1 was the other
4039.3s
piece there, which everyone had
4040.7s
anthropic radius. So, you got that one.
4043.4s
Oh, man. Jenny, what a crazy time we're
4045.2s
living through. What a so much change. Okay, before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that I should have asked you that you want to leave listeners with that you want to double down on? Um, I think I just want to call out uh the Anthropic
4048.9s
Okay, before we get to our very exciting
4051.0s
lightning round, is there anything else
4052.6s
that I should have asked you that you
4054.9s
want to leave listeners with that you
4056.2s
want to double down on? Um, I think I
4058.9s
just want to call out uh the Anthropic
4061.8s
Design team um and shout them out uh just because it's a team of folks that are just really humble and they're not always allowed us on social but they're doing a lot of really great work and especially through this time where our jobs are changing so much. Uh the team is so resilient and they're they sort of
4064.6s
just because it's a team of folks that
4066.6s
are just really humble and they're not
4068.3s
always allowed us on social but they're
4069.9s
doing a lot of really great work and
4072.6s
especially through this time where our
4074.2s
jobs are changing so much. Uh the team
4076.5s
is so resilient and they're they sort of
4080.0s
span this whole spectrum of people who are really technical and prototypy to all the all the way to folks that are really high craft and and and delivering stuff that's that's going out the door and is fabulous. Um and we are hiring throughout the year. So I just wanted to
4082.6s
are really technical and prototypy to
4084.2s
all the all the way to folks that are
4086.2s
really high craft and and and delivering
4089.6s
stuff that's that's going out the door
4091.0s
and is fabulous. Um and we are hiring
4093.8s
throughout the year. So I just wanted to
4095.1s
call that out if I didn't scare you with the way that we work internally anthropic. If that sounds more exciting than terrifying um would love to connect. What sounds exciting is getting access to these slacks or all the features laughter being built? Yeah, that's the core benefit. Let's talk to super intelligence right
4097.3s
the way that we work internally
4098.5s
anthropic. If that sounds more exciting
4100.1s
than terrifying um would love to
4102.5s
connect. What sounds exciting is getting
4104.5s
access to these slacks or all the
4106.2s
features laughter being built?
4107.4s
Yeah, that's the core benefit.
4108.6s
Let's talk to super intelligence right
4110.5s
now and tell me where I should invest. I'm just joking. And then in terms of hiring, is there anything specific that people should think about to if they want to apply? Think a little bit about the the archetypes that I mentioned, especially the strong generalist and the deep specialist. Those folks were really
4112.8s
I'm just joking. And then in terms of
4114.6s
hiring, is there anything specific that
4116.0s
people should think about to if they
4118.2s
want to apply?
4119.0s
Think a little bit about the the
4122.1s
archetypes that I mentioned, especially
4123.4s
the strong generalist and the deep
4124.9s
specialist. Those folks were really
4126.8s
excited about uh but generally folks who excited about uh but generally folks who are the block and the deep tea. the block the block of the deep tea. What could we be talking about? Uh yeah, folks who feel like they, you know, they those archetypes resonate with them, but also folks that are just
4129.0s
excited about uh but generally folks who are
4129.3s
the block and the deep tea. the block
4131.5s
the block of the deep tea.
4134.2s
What could we be talking about? Uh yeah,
4136.9s
folks who feel like they,
4139.6s
you know, they those archetypes resonate
4141.6s
with them, but also folks that are just
4143.0s
really excited about the technology have been building a lot um and and sort of want to be on the frontier. Amazing. Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round and we got five questions for you. Jenny, are you ready? All right, I'm ready. Here we go. What are two or three books
4145.0s
been building a lot um and and sort of
4148.7s
want to be on the frontier.
4150.4s
Amazing. Well, with that, we've reached
4152.6s
our very exciting lightning round and we
4154.9s
got five questions for you. Jenny, are
4156.8s
you ready?
4157.0s
All right, I'm ready.
4158.8s
Here we go. What are two or three books
4160.6s
that you find yourself recommending most to other people? The first one is The Power Broker by Robert Caro, which is an which is an incredibly aggressive recommendation given that it's a it's like 1100 pages. Uh but I think in this era when our our when our attention spans are so short, I
4162.2s
to other people?
4163.1s
The first one is The Power Broker by
4165.7s
Robert Caro, which is an which is an
4168.6s
incredibly aggressive recommendation
4171.7s
given that it's a it's like 1100 pages.
4174.2s
Uh but I think in this era when our our
4177.8s
when our attention spans are so short, I
4179.8s
think this is actually worth reading end to end. Um because there I think there are very few like collections or memoirs where it spans through someone's entire life and you sort of see how somebody changes throughout those decades. Um and it's also somebody who's really controversial too and it's it's nice to
4181.4s
to end. Um because there I think there
4183.7s
are very few like collections or memoirs
4187.0s
where it spans through someone's entire
4189.0s
life and you sort of see how somebody
4191.9s
changes throughout those decades. Um and
4194.4s
it's also somebody who's really
4195.4s
controversial too and it's it's nice to
4197.8s
sort of like read a really nuanced view of somebody Robert Moses and I think we just lose out on some of this like long arc thinking because we're so much we're thinking so much about right now. So, uh, it's just an important reminder that careers are long and is also really good for kind of understanding how somebody
4199.7s
of somebody Robert Moses and I think we
4203.6s
just lose out on some of this like long
4205.4s
arc thinking because we're so much we're
4207.0s
thinking so much about right now. So,
4209.6s
uh, it's just an important reminder that
4210.9s
careers are long and is also really good
4213.4s
for kind of understanding how somebody
4215.4s
just gets things done really well. So, Power Broker. Um, the second one that I recommend to a lot of people is uh, a book called Insomniac City, which is written by Bill Hayes, who is was the partner of the scientist Oliver Socks around the time that Oliver Sox died. and it's just this like really beautiful
4217.8s
Power Broker. Um, the second one that I
4220.5s
recommend to a lot of people is uh, a
4222.7s
book called Insomniac City, which is
4224.5s
written by Bill Hayes, who is was the
4227.9s
partner of the scientist Oliver Socks
4231.3s
around the time that Oliver Sox died.
4233.2s
and it's just this like really beautiful
4235.3s
kind of like ethereal memoir of all of her socks lost days and their sort of love story. Um, I think this has like very little to do with the stuff on your podcast, Lenny, but it's just like it's just a book that I really love. Um, and just like makes you think about
4237.8s
her socks lost days and their sort of
4240.0s
love story. Um, I think this has like
4242.5s
very little to do with the stuff on your
4244.2s
podcast, Lenny, but it's just like it's
4245.9s
just a book that I really love. Um, and
4248.0s
just like makes you think about
4249.7s
mortality, but also like love and life and stuff like that. So, that's one of my favorite books. My goal here isn't, you know, I'm trying to create we're trying to create Renaissance humans. So, all of this other stuff is excellent. Cool. Interestingly, I saw Julie Zoo, uh, famed design leader, was reading The
4251.8s
and stuff like that. So, that's one of
4253.4s
my favorite books.
4254.4s
My goal here isn't, you know, I'm trying
4256.0s
to create we're trying to create
4257.0s
Renaissance humans. So, all of this
4259.5s
other stuff is excellent.
4261.8s
Cool. Interestingly, I saw Julie Zoo,
4264.5s
uh, famed design leader, was reading The
4266.3s
Power Broker recently. I don't know what's going on over here, spreading in what's going on over here, spreading in design. Okay. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really movie or TV show that you really enjoyed? Um, I watched A Sentimental Value recently. I watched it on a plane, which
4268.1s
what's going on over here, spreading in
4271.0s
what's going on over here, spreading in design.
4272.2s
Okay. Do you have a favorite recent
4274.1s
movie or TV show that you really
4275.5s
movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?
4276.2s
Um, I watched A Sentimental Value
4278.3s
recently. I watched it on a plane, which
4280.6s
is, you know, how how directors want you to watch their films. Um, but it's a it's a Norwegian film by the same director who did The Worst Person in the World. I think just the the pacing, the writing, the relationship between the characters is just really subtle and beautiful. Um, it's basically about this
4282.4s
to watch their films. Um, but it's a
4285.0s
it's a Norwegian film by the same
4287.1s
director who did The Worst Person in the
4289.1s
World. I think just the the pacing, the
4291.5s
writing, the relationship between the
4292.7s
characters is just really subtle and
4294.2s
beautiful. Um, it's basically about this
4296.8s
family, sort of a family drama, but also about this house that they lived in the entire their entire lives. It's beautiful cuz like the house is sort of a character. So, I don't know what else to say about that, but that was a really good movie. Um, and then I would also recommend obviously The Pit season 2.
4299.5s
about this house that they lived in the
4301.0s
entire their entire lives. It's
4303.0s
beautiful cuz like the house is sort of
4304.5s
a character. So, I don't know what else
4306.7s
to say about that, but that was a really
4308.1s
good movie. Um, and then I would also
4310.3s
recommend obviously The Pit season 2.
4312.9s
You know, we're on that. We're on that. I think everybody just likes to watch people who are really competent at their jobs do something. Um, so yeah, imagine being an actor on that show just like how much you have to learn and memorize all these terms. Yeah. Yeah. It just also seems really
4315.0s
I think everybody just likes to watch
4316.5s
people who are really competent at their
4317.8s
jobs do something. Um, so yeah,
4320.8s
imagine being an actor on that show just
4322.4s
like how much you have to learn and
4324.1s
memorize all these terms.
4325.7s
Yeah. Yeah. It just also seems really
4327.4s
fast-paced, too. Like they do so much stuff in like one shot and there's just so much like movement and stuff like that. Seems really really hard to be an that. Seems really really hard to be an aon. And I only recently realized Noah Wy was in ER as like a younger person and now
4329.7s
stuff in like one shot and there's just
4331.5s
so much like movement and stuff like
4332.8s
that. Seems really really hard to be an
4334.5s
that. Seems really really hard to be an aon.
4335.3s
And I only recently realized Noah Wy was
4337.0s
in ER as like a younger person and now
4339.0s
he's like the head of this. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. Okay. favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love cannot be co-work. Not one that I actually discovered recently. Um but I retro I've been using it for basically two years now since it came out. Um and I think I think I discovered new benefits of it recently.
4340.8s
Yeah. Yeah.
4341.4s
Oh man. Okay. favorite product you've
4343.4s
recently discovered that you really love
4344.9s
cannot be co-work.
4346.2s
Not one that I actually discovered
4347.8s
recently. Um but I retro I've been using
4351.5s
it for basically two years now since it
4354.3s
came out. Um and I think I think I
4357.4s
discovered new benefits of it recently.
4359.6s
So uh for folks who don't know about Retro, it's sort of like this small community photo sharing app in which you can only share um photos from each week from a given week as opposed to like all time. Um, and it basically has like none of the social media stuff. Like you
4361.4s
Retro, it's sort of like this small
4363.5s
community photo sharing app in which you
4365.3s
can only share um photos from each week
4369.1s
from a given week as opposed to like all
4371.2s
time. Um, and it basically has like none
4372.9s
of the social media stuff. Like you
4374.9s
can't really see like counts. It's not there's no ads, etc. Um, but one really nice thing is now that I've been using it for 2 years, I can now look back at each year and see like, oh yeah, this week two years ago I was doing this and it's become this really special way to
4377.9s
there's no ads, etc. Um, but one really
4380.4s
nice thing is now that I've been using
4382.2s
it for 2 years, I can now look back at
4384.6s
each year and see like, oh yeah, this
4386.6s
week two years ago I was doing this and
4388.9s
it's become this really special way to
4390.7s
like live through each week of my life like live through each week of my life basically. Wow. And uh it's also a beautifully crafted app if you're looking for building your own taste in design. Yeah. Designers love retro. I could see I could see that. Okay. Do you have a favorite life motto that you
4393.6s
like live through each week of my life basically.
4394.6s
Wow. And uh it's also a beautifully
4396.6s
crafted app if you're looking for
4398.5s
building your own taste in design.
4400.4s
Yeah. Designers love retro.
4402.6s
I could see I could see that. Okay. Do
4404.9s
you have a favorite life motto that you
4406.3s
often come back to in work or in life? Yeah. Um not sure if my it's my favorite life motto, but one thing I do catch myself saying a lot is just uh it is what it is. My dad says that all the time. I love My dad says that all the time. I love Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
4408.4s
Yeah. Um not sure if my it's my favorite
4411.0s
life motto, but one thing I do catch
4412.7s
myself saying a lot is just uh it is
4415.4s
what it is.
4417.0s
My dad says that all the time. I love
4419.0s
My dad says that all the time. I love Yeah.
4419.4s
Yeah. Yeah.
4420.0s
It sounds super defeist, but I promise it's not. I think just given how much stuff is going on in the world right now and especially with the industry and whatnot, uh you can't control everything and so sometimes it is what it is just like brings the levity you need to move
4422.3s
it's not. I think just given how much
4424.8s
stuff is going on in the world right now
4426.2s
and especially with the industry and
4427.6s
whatnot, uh you can't control everything
4430.5s
and so sometimes it is what it is just
4432.8s
like brings the levity you need to move
4434.6s
like brings the levity you need to move forward. I went to I did a 10day meditation retreat a while ago and I came back from it and it's like dad you've been right all along. This is the whole the answer to it all. It is what it is. You can't don't cling, don't try to change. Just
4435.4s
I went to I did a 10day meditation
4437.3s
retreat a while ago and I came back from
4439.4s
it and it's like dad you've been right
4441.8s
all along. This is the whole the answer
4443.6s
to it all. It is what it is. You can't
4445.9s
don't cling, don't try to change. Just
4448.1s
it is what it is. It is what it is. It's there's so much depth to that. I was like, Okay, smarter than I even was like, Okay, smarter than I even thought. Okay, final question. Coming back to co-work, is there a I don't know, mind-blowing use case, something just like, Wow, that's so cool that Co-work
4449.0s
It is what it is.
4450.1s
It's there's so much depth to that. I
4452.1s
was like, Okay, smarter than I even
4454.4s
was like, Okay, smarter than I even thought.
4455.5s
Okay, final question. Coming back to
4457.1s
co-work, is there a I don't know,
4460.4s
mind-blowing use case, something just
4462.3s
like, Wow, that's so cool that Co-work
4464.6s
can do that either something you use it for or you've heard somebody using it for or you've heard somebody using it for. One thing I really like is just like introspection. And so, uh, I have this this folder basically of like local notes that I have from that I use like
4466.6s
for or you've heard somebody using it
4468.3s
for or you've heard somebody using it for.
4469.0s
One thing I really like is just like
4470.3s
introspection. And so, uh, I have this
4473.8s
this folder basically of like local
4476.1s
notes that I have from that I use like
4478.3s
IIA writer for and I basically just like write whatever and and over the years have collected it with a bunch of different notes and they span like all different things like one-on-one notes like random thoughts like kind of like tiny memos, interview notes, etc. And my favorite like it makes it's it's cool to
4480.1s
write whatever and and over the years
4482.0s
have collected it with a bunch of
4483.3s
different notes and they span like all
4486.6s
different things like one-on-one notes
4488.0s
like random thoughts like kind of like
4489.9s
tiny memos, interview notes, etc. And my
4493.6s
favorite like it makes it's it's cool to
4496.6s
me is just like using co-work to like analyze that and have insights out of it and actually create things out of it. Um so like anything I anytime I can like learn something new about myself like I love that. But I think a very practical thing I did with it the other day was
4499.3s
analyze that and have insights out of it
4501.0s
and actually create things out of it. Um
4503.3s
so like anything I anytime I can like
4505.7s
learn something new about myself like I
4507.4s
love that. But I think a very practical
4509.4s
thing I did with it the other day was
4511.0s
like along the lines of hiring, I was like, Oh yeah, I want to sort of articulate like what it is that I look for, what I look for in design craft because I think actually a lot of people struggle to articulate that. And I just had it read through all of my notes,
4513.4s
like, Oh yeah, I want to sort of
4514.7s
articulate like what it is that I look
4517.3s
for, what I look for in design craft
4519.1s
because I think actually a lot of people
4520.6s
struggle to articulate that. And I just
4522.4s
had it read through all of my notes,
4523.8s
both like interview notes and other things that I cared about and memos and stuff like that I've written in in the past and then it made me this rubric uh for for evaluating that. So, um, that kind of introspection where it's like, Oh, I don't even I wouldn't have realized even these things about myself
4525.1s
things that I cared about and memos and
4526.6s
stuff like that I've written in in the
4528.2s
past and then it made me this rubric uh
4530.9s
for for evaluating that. So, um, that
4533.4s
kind of introspection where it's like,
4534.9s
Oh, I don't even I wouldn't have
4536.9s
realized even these things about myself
4538.6s
that I've been putting out there implicitly, that's been really cool for implicitly, that's been really cool for me. That is so cool. So, just to make this very clear for people, you have a folder with all these things you've written, one-on- ones, meetings, like you could do, I don't know if you all are allowed
4539.7s
implicitly, that's been really cool for
4541.9s
implicitly, that's been really cool for me.
4542.3s
That is so cool. So, just to make this
4544.0s
very clear for people, you have a folder
4545.9s
with all these things you've written,
4547.6s
one-on- ones, meetings, like you could
4549.4s
do, I don't know if you all are allowed
4550.6s
to use granola, something like that, like meeting transcripts, and ask it. And it's like I was gonna ask what prompt you use, but it's just like read all these things I've written and help me probably just like understand how I feel about what is design. Yeah, basically I think it was like,
4552.0s
like meeting transcripts, and ask it.
4554.6s
And it's like I was gonna ask what
4555.8s
prompt you use, but it's just like read
4557.6s
all these things I've written and help
4559.3s
me probably just like understand how I
4561.7s
feel about what is design.
4563.3s
Yeah, basically I think it was like,
4565.4s
hey, I have a bunch of interview notes and a bunch of notes related to design craft in this folder. Um, read it and then help me craft a uh like a a memo rubric for how I assess craft in rubric for how I assess craft in interviews. So cool. So cool. Yeah,
4567.0s
and a bunch of notes related to design
4569.4s
craft in this folder. Um, read it and
4572.2s
then help me craft a uh like a a memo
4576.8s
rubric for how I assess craft in
4579.1s
rubric for how I assess craft in interviews.
4580.4s
So cool.
4581.1s
So cool. Yeah,
4582.2s
Jenny, this was awesome. What a what a time to be alive. What a time. Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and how can listeners be useful to out and how can listeners be useful to you? Yeah. Um I'm on Twitterx is what we're calling it these days. Um it's
4584.6s
time to be alive.
4585.8s
What a time.
4586.9s
Two final questions. Where can folks
4588.1s
find you online if they want to reach
4589.2s
out and how can listeners be useful to
4590.7s
out and how can listeners be useful to you?
4591.4s
Yeah. Um I'm on Twitterx is what we're
4594.4s
calling it these days. Um it's
4596.3s
jennywen. That's probably the best place. Not really on LinkedIn as much. So that's that's the best place. Um and how can folks be helpful to me? Send us your product feedback. You know, like we're working on co-work uh or anything cloudreated really. Just send us our your feedback. We'd love to make it better for you.
4598.3s
place. Not really on LinkedIn as much.
4601.0s
So that's that's the best place. Um and
4603.1s
how can folks be helpful to me? Send us
4605.4s
your product feedback. You know, like
4607.0s
we're working on co-work uh or anything
4609.3s
cloudreated really. Just send us our
4611.1s
your feedback. We'd love to make it
4612.6s
better for you.
4613.4s
Jenny, thank you so much for being here. Yeah, of course. It was great chatting with Lenny. It was wonderful. Jenny, thank you. Bye, It was wonderful. Jenny, thank you. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also,
4615.5s
Yeah, of course. It was great chatting
4617.3s
with Lenny.
4618.3s
It was wonderful. Jenny, thank you. Bye,
4620.7s
It was wonderful. Jenny, thank you. Bye, everyone.
4622.2s
Thank you so much for listening. If you
4623.9s
found this valuable, you can subscribe
4625.4s
to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify,
4627.9s
or your favorite podcast app. Also,
4630.5s
please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennispodcast.com. See you in the next episode.
4632.4s
leaving a review as that really helps
4634.2s
other listeners find the podcast. You
4636.4s
can find all past episodes or learn more
4638.5s
about the show at lennispodcast.com.
4641.6s
See you in the next episode.
